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Old 06-03-2010   #91
Engineer Civil Structural Hydraulic, Evans CO
Paddling Since: 68
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 158
I concur. You get what you pay for. When doing a life cycle cost analysis on a boat using the PW, current interest, FW, one must ask the question," Does double the cost warrent a boat with double the n periods?" The answer to that is no. You need triple the n periods to justify double the cost if the money is properly valued. The money always has alternatives.

Just a note: since moat tubes are dimensionally stable because of the polyester fabric, just put in 1 psi. Your boat will last longer. I personally hate Saturns because of the warrantee service....but I hear they are getting better.

Gary Strome
Friends Don't Let Friends Drive PVC Boats
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Old 06-03-2010   #92
Rainy Northwest, Washington
Paddling Since: 1980
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 460
Originally Posted by rgesner View Post
In answer to all the misinformation and bashing of "glued" PVC:

See my post:
Why did all the old solvent "welded" pvc boats (i.e. the first Maravias) eventually come apart at the seams, the heat welded ones didn't?

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Old 07-12-2010   #93
Portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 4
13FT SB Saturn owner review

Just posting an update to this thread regarding no real saturn raft owners posting feedback. I own a 13ft self bailing saturn raft. I was very scepticle and read all these threads and it almost scared me off, but for the price I thought what the hell. I purchased it 3 months ago and it is the new 2010 model 1450 dollars with shipping. Basically I wanted a nice self bailing boat without dropping 4 grand or buying an overpriced piece of half or more used up rubber on craigslist. Not hating on used boats I just feel people over price old self bailing boats. I purchased a Sotar bucket boat 2 years ago and it has held up but is starting to show signs of it's age(only a few years left). Back to the Saturn raft. I bought it from RM rafts and he got it to me in 3 days just in time for my Rougue river trip. I ran it with an old frame I had that fit perfectly. It handled great in the water, bailed fast no problems, and held my gear and three of us with room to spare. The bottom of the boat is redicuously thick almost excessive(adds weight), but better thicker than thinnner. The valves are Halkey roberts knock offs but work great. Since then I have run the east fork of the Hood river, Sandy river gorge, Klickitat River, and the White Salmon. No problems what so ever. I have drug it across all sorts of jagged rocks and left only some scuff marks. One thing that really impressed me was on the East Fork of the Hood river had a very scetchy put in under a bridge and we lost the boat on some loose dirt and it fell down a 50 foot embankment. Once it hit bottom I accidently knocked loose a 250 or so pound boulder(Shit my pants) and it tumbled down and landed smack dab in the middle of the self bail floor and rolled out of the boat. I thought it was done for and was furious, but when I got to the bottom everything was undamaged. So so far I have no complaints of performance and quality. It is made of glued PVC which I have accepted. I think they should offer a pvc and a hypalon version. In the end this boat may only last 10 years, but I only use it probably 30 days a year and store inflated inside so low uv exposure(put 101 on it) and not hard on seams due to inflation. So for all I know it may last much longer or it could crap out sooner. You have to look at it from a cost stand point. If it lasts 10 good years with no problems at a third of the price I still come out ahead. That means I get a shinny new raft every 10 years rather than a 20 year old worn out one that is still just making it by. So there's my review and you can hate on it and saturn rafts all you want, but right now I give it two thumbs up(this could change over the next few years if it falls apart so I will update if it does). I plan on reposting this in all the other forums too so they can get at least one positive review from someone that actually owns one. I don't want to retype this so I am copying it.

Hope this helps someone
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Old 07-12-2010   #94
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Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 337
I ended up purchasing a 14 self bailer from RM Rafts. I think I got a great value. It works awesome and RM has been a great company to work with. I would highly recommend this boat.

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Old 08-17-2010   #95
buffalo, New York
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1
How about another real saturn raft owner. We run alot of rivers here in NYS and they tend me be rocky and sometimes sharp. It's not uncommon to rip a hole thru a floor on any raft be it Star, Saturn, Hyside, Aire, ect... That being said we look at what we buy every year with durability in mind. As an outfitter and guide we also have a bottom line to watch. We were in the market for half a dozen new boats this summer. We obviously looked at Saturn because of the prices. We currently have alot of Stars(which hold up very well and take significant abuse). The Stars also tend to NOT taco in some holes like I've seen some of the domestics do time and time again. This year we decided to try out Saturn after alot of debating between 4 different manufacturers. They have made alot of improvements like the d-rings and added floor thickness. I am happy with their performance. There are still a few technical issues that I would like to get resolved and Cody has been more than willing to comply or work with us from an outfitters stand point. We will need some larger boats in the near future and I will look at Saturn first because of their willingness to work with us and SERVICE the customer. I just cannot justify paying 2-3 times the money in some cases and not getting much more out of it. As far as the warranty goes, I have been in Industrial Sales/ Manufacturing for about 15's my day job. Everyone "builds" in a warranty/adjustment cost into the price of everything, be it cars, tires, appliances or what have you. As a one time Board of Director I can verify this first hand. You are paying for your warranty for every set of tires you buy whether you want to admit it or not and to not buy into would have to be a moron. $99 for 3 yrs is nothing. I've only been dealing with Cody a year but he has always been straight forward and honest.
As far as how long they last..who knows. Time will tell but they have been proven to handle sharps creeks this summer with no wear and tear and our customers had a great time.
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Old 08-17-2010   #96
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Eastern Slope, Colorado
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Originally Posted by bodacious29 View Post
That means I get a shinny new raft every 10 years rather than a 20 year old worn out one that is still just making it by.
Some of us believe in buying something that lasts a lifetime. Some buy crap from China that needs replaced more frequently, but costs much less. It depends on your priorities I guess. The ecological footprint of the latter, which is reliant on Chinese electricity (which is damming rivers at a furious rate, BTW), fossil fuels for shipping, etc. seems vastly larger to me.

Of course Hyside is made in Korea, Avon in Wales, hell the material for the Aire probably came from China on it's way to Idaho, but at least you won't have to order one every decade; you can often buy them slightly used with much less footprint.

Some people want a shiny new car every few years too. Some people keep the old one running because they don't want to see it's cumulative toxic parts buried somewhere in the earth just so they can get that new car smell again.
It's all about your priorities.
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Old 08-17-2010   #97
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Fort Collins, Colorado
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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Sheltered viewpoint Randaddy. What about the newbies who just wanna get out on the river 7 days a year, perhaps with the wife and kids? I say, perfect opportunity for someone to get into rivers without mortgaging their testicles for their first raft. This is a really important topic to post 47,000 times about. Seriously.

When I got into kayaking (6 months ago) dudes like you told me not to buy a boat because I couldn't afford something new and hot. Instead, I bought the crappiest, oldest set up I could find on CL and kayaked probably 25 days this year. I'm so glad I didn't listen to dudes like you. All raft guides are chodes anyway.
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Old 08-17-2010   #98
sh$t show voyeuor/host
Barnard(Marshall), North Carolina
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Originally Posted by rgesner View Post
In answer to all the misinformation and bashing of "glued" PVC:

See my post:
These threads are getting ridiculous, but not as ridiculous as calling glued pvc "solvent welded". Yes the solvent in the glue etches the pvc and allows for a stronger bond, but it is in no way welding the two pieces of plastic together. The fact is that there is still glue in between that is susceptible to heat, mildew and overinflation, period. How many welded seams have any of you seen come apart?
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Old 08-17-2010   #99
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Greeley, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 29
I bought a used Hyside 10 or more years ago and have taken down the Salmon, the Grand Canyon, Westwater, 100+ runs down Brown's Canyon-and I couldn't be happier with the choice I made. I take care of it, of course, but the boat has been awesome and worth the $1300 I paid for it and still has many more miles in it. Though I like the idea of a brand new boat, I have no regrets about the awesome Hyside and am very glad I got a quality boat.
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Old 08-18-2010   #100
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Eastern Slope, Colorado
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Originally Posted by SimpleMan View Post
Sheltered viewpoint Randaddy.
Sheltered? Son, my viewpoint on rubber is anything but sheltered. I've been out there on every kind of rubber you can imagine. I'd wager I've seen at least ten times the miles you have in ten times the variety of boats. My opinion on raft materials - having owned, used, damaged, repaired, and had professionally repaired more boats than you've probably ever sat in - is legitimate.

Buying cheap so you can have "brand new, right now" is not a sustainable way of living and consuming. I make fun of Hyundai and I'll continue to make fun of Saturn.

The used kayak you bought instead of listening to "dudes like" me is just the advice I give to people on a budget. I rarely buy new stuff and can't recall telling anyone anything about new kayaks. Buy used, learn what you like, but don't buy new and disposable.

And only some raft guides are chodes, and I think they have blue boats.

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