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Old 01-23-2014   #61
Flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
As a fan of all things Lebowski I picked up on the reference instantly.

I wonder if anyone commenting either in defense of, or criticizing Rocky, actually knows him personally. His river resume speaks for itself (amazing!), but his record as the director of a non-profit that is/isn't accomplishing it's stated goals is less clear. I don't know him personally but do have a few friends that have done a fair amount of boating with him. Even though the OP's cleaver thread title might not have made perfectly clear what his viewpoint was, I certainly got it. The line between commercial outfitter and charitable non-profit is perhaps what is a bit fuzzy. I want to trust that Rocky is doing the right thing. The more local people that can become involved with river conservation in these remote regions the better. Cheap Chinese rafts might just be the best way to do that, I dunno. Not too many other influential Americans are standing up for these threatened rivers so, to whatever positive end Rocky's efforts may result in, I'm grateful. Hopefully he won't be doing more harm than good- westerners do run that risk anytime we find a new beautiful place we want to "save." Is Sierra Rio's top priority conservation or funding trips on really cool rivers? Both?

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Old 01-23-2014   #62
Flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 382
Differing views can make for a better venue to learn. Overreacting and taking things personally typically doesn't. Shappattack, based on this thread (zero desire to research your posting history) I hope you stick around.

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Old 01-23-2014   #63
Avatard's Avatar
portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1991
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Posts: 2,188
This is a very complicated case, Mountainbuzz. You know a lot of ins, a lot of outs, a lot of what-have-yous. And uh, lot of strands to keep in my head, man. Lot of strands in old Duder's head.
Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it "guaranteed", I will. I got spare time.
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Old 01-23-2014   #64
Austin, Texas
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 136
Originally Posted by snowjunkie View Post
If you ever get the chance to go down there they roll out the red carpet for you. JPW is some of the best people around. They'll give you tons of info and if you ask real nice they'll throw in scraps for patches.
Jack is legit!
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Old 01-24-2014   #65
cataraftgirl's Avatar
Sandy, Utah
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I personally enjoy posts by Shappattack. He has given me some great advice, and has been nice enough to post photos and answer questions. This thread unfortunately got off on the wrong foot so to speak. The Big Lebowski thing was lost on most of us. Instead of a civil discussion on the irony of the subject matter, it went where it always does on MB....US made vs Foreign made boats, PNW vs Colorado, etc. etc. For Pete's sake, I started a thread about how & where to mount a flag on my raft, and got reprimanded for improper terminology, had my motivations for wanting a flag on my raft called into question, and inadvertently started a PNW vs Colorado war. That seems to be the way it goes on MB. If you start a thread or make a post, be ready for what comes. Unfortunate.
"We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love....and then we return home."
Australian Aboriginal Proverb
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Old 01-24-2014   #66
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,408
A big ten four to cataraftgirl's post

I am retired and monitor Mt Buzz quite a bit and do some posts.

I find this board to be the place to go for information and opinions.

Every body has opinions - some good, some bad, some based on fact - some not.

To aid to cataraftgirl's post a bit more, if a person posts their opinion here, they better be ready to accept the positive and negative reactions. Does not seem to matter what the thread starter or responders writes, the reaction is all over the place.

Bottom line. Don't let the negative feedback bother you just enjoy the meeting place.

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Old 01-24-2014   #67
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at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
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Posts: 4,346
Originally Posted by Avatard View Post

Its a Big Lebowski quote if I'm not mistaken. Not too unlike my Tommy Boy reference.

Geeze what ever happened to pop culture ?
Damn good one! What ever happened to "The dude" that used to post here? This past week I found a new favorite TBL quote, they are endless! Missoula just had their annual "The Dude Abides" thingy at a local theater. Too funny, too bad most of us missed the connection.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 01-24-2014   #68
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,239
I didn't 't think Shapp was out of line to broach the subject ..don 't pecieve him as negatively as the usually mild mannered Andy ...have found some of his posts to be good content...please don 'take your ball and go home...I don't, however, agree with the conclusion he and others reached that he is doing more harm than good....I think it is the other way around: a small amount of harm, having a small number of boats made in China, whose environmental standards generall suck, so that his efforts to raise awareness by taking people including locals who otherwise could not afford it on the threatened rivers.If Rocky or Greg (who also runs a non boating related non profit of some sort in Guatemala) were primarily interested in making money they could simply engage in the high paying professions they have the education for, a point Andy wad making.They have plenty of money to finance their own travels.Is Rocky supposed to personally finance everything? Are American made products perfectly environmentally friendly? Do the probably fairly conscientious US raft /kayak companies make the boats from scratch or get their materials from big chemical companies?Ever been to New Jersey or Delaware? Which culture consumes 6/7 times per capita than the world norm? Did we take short cuts when we were st the same stage of developement as Chins?

Avatard you are truly clueless as to what Rocky does...sorry....and Mountainbuzz started as a Colorado kayak forum and evolved to it 's current state ...Desertbuzz might be am appropriate name since rafting theses have come to dominate the content and a high percentage of the raft runs discussed are in deserts....
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Old 01-24-2014   #69
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Seattle, Washington
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 365
don't go all "good bye cruel boatertalk" shap!

Originally Posted by shappattack View Post
You simply amaze me. The thread title is indeed a big lebowski quote. As you will see in my second post on this thread, I clearly state the objective was to discuss the whole import from china to support environmental advocacy in Latin America doesn't make a lot of sense to me. You clearly cannot or do not want to have a discussion on this. I would love to have some meaningful discussions on various topics and have some real critical no holds bard cut the bull shit discussion. But it seams as if vigorous debate has no place on the Buzz. Therefore, moderators please cancel my user account and ban me from this site, or what ever you need to do to eliminate my complete useless information that I have contributed on the Owyhee, the Upper Chetco, IK trip stuff, how to build tables, how to build frames, blah blah. Please cancel my user acount. Last post on this site. good by.
You add too much to this site to bail. Just a little apeshap is all....I blame the snowpack!

I've seen Rocky present a time or two. His TR on EF Clear Creek opened the door to that amazing canyon for me, an amazing place I'd never have seen otherwise. He seems to me to be a competent passionate river explorer, a solid boater, and particularly committed to central america. Most any aspect of commercial tourism is inherently bad for someone's environment .... shap has pointed out the inherent contradictions in this specific aspect of what Rocky is doing.

I generally like Andy H's posts, but man that is a much stronger personal attack on Shap than anything Shap has had to say about Rocky.

Maybe before any of us gets on their high horse, we should all look at the huge piles of plastic we burn gasoline hauling around a third of a continent so we can joy ride some river somewhere and ask WHY we think we have moral high ground at all? Isn't the guy who lives 2 blocks from work and walks everyone the real environmentalist? In practice, anyway...

Most people don't live up to their ideals. If the did, they wouldn't be called ideals. They are aspirational goals we sometimes attain, not the baseline from which we operate.

Anyway, Shap, I look forward to attacking some rarely run rivers with ya soon man.
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Old 01-24-2014   #70
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Right near the beach...BOYEEEEE, Brahbrobrahdo
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 442
Maybe I'm missing something but...If boats are all constructed the same way (glued and welded) than it really isn't the boat manufacturers that we need to worry about. The fabric manufacturers are the ones that pose the biggest threat. If the fabric is being sourced from a country with lax laws, then the factory could be an environmental nightmare that is producing shitty pvc. But, just because a boat comes from overseas doesn't mean it's junk. I've seen first and second year Tributary boats that have been run hard and are in still in great shape. The Tributary line, which is made overseas, is still made with Serge Ferrari's PVC fabric. However, it's a thinner/lower weight fabric and is only available in one color.

So, it is POSSIBLE that Rocky took this into consideration. But, you won't know unless you ask.

Wear shoes in the Safety first, then teamwork.
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