In a position to invest in a long term boat for the family - going to finally put my patched 16' Oregon WhiteWater to rest. 2 kids, getting more into white water, want a boat good for 4 people for up to week long trips - but also for some fishing on MT rivers. I'm used to a 16' even though it was probably overkill 75% of the time.
I want a boat that's going to last and I have the blessing of my wife - of sorts. I've narrowed it down to a Sotar or an Aire. I understand, apples and oranges. Both good boats. I'm entertaining the 14' on both, the 15' ST and the 156D.
When I price everything out (I need a new frame too), I can get into an Aire for about 1500 less. If money wasn't an issue, I'd likely jump on a Sotar. But that extra cash could get me a stern seat, an anchor - better cooler, a canopy, etc.
In anyone's opinion, is it worth me pushing my budget for the Sotar (I want the chafe too, which adds on) - or is it over the top, both are great boats and I should just focus on the extras?
They did not give me that option- mine was a custom Zephyr and the bulk of the boat is smooth. It's rolled up right now- but I believe it is walking surfaces only. It's not nearly as rough as they used to make them.
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Maravia makes wonderful boats. They are (in my experience) the most durable boats made today. We aren't able to use them for our commercial trips because they don't roll well.
Zach, please elaborate. I had someone ask me about a Moravia cat recently and all I know is that people just don't run them. Have they not kept up with the (successful) designs, or are they just out of the limelight?
OB1, in that particular quote I was referring to the one boat being ridiculously flat like it lost all of it's shape. As I said latter in the post, I've seen that quite a bit, I also said that I think their wireframes are flattering (not accurate to the finished product). It may sound like I have a problem with Aire, I don't - they're just not my favorite but I'd love a little 130D for a fishing rig or maybe a super puma.
I guess my main point is that it seems to me they loose their shapes a little faster than other boat designs. My guess is that is due to their construction style. One; they employ a lot of horizontal seams vs the standard vertical and two because of the bladder. There is just more space for things to shift, move and sag with two independent pieces that each can affect the shape. I don't think this is noticed by most folks nor is it a problem for most, but to me the rocker was the whole point. And since there was already less rocker on paper between a D boat and an SL and in my opinion they were likely to loose some over time. The SL became the hands down choice.
Again folks, I'm not trying to knock Aire (and I don't think you're accusing me of that) I was just voicing my observations.
I see a lot of outfitters running maravia rafts, but all of them trailer there boats. Moab companies seem to run lot's of 18' maravia's down in Cat. Look like pretty sweet big water boats.
I've been running a 12x22 Maravia cat this winter and love it. It's really well made and has more rocker than the Legend so it's super responsive and surfs like a dream. I roll it and leave it in my garage in between boating trips.
I'm not really sure why people don't run them as much as SOTARs. My best guess is that the SOTAR Legend design was so far ahead of previous Maravia cat designs that everyone running hard whitewater has been using them. Now that Maravia and AIRE have boat designs similar to the Legend more and more people will start using those boats too.
I could write a whole page on very slight differences between the SOTAR Legend and the Maravia cat tubes. The SOTAR is lighter and slides over rocks better. The Maravia (in my opinion) is more bomber, stiffer, and a slightly better boat design.
As for commercial rafts - there are many, many outfitters that use Maravias for good reason. We tried them on the Middle Fork for a couple seasons and liked everything about them except their rolling. If we trailered our boats between trips we'd be using them too.
I have seen Maravia rafts that are fully "rough" coated (Val has that green one, right Zach?) and we used it in a raft flipping exercise, it is markedly heavier than my Sotar of the same size, but most likely worth it. I see a fair amount of Maravia cats out here in Western Oregon, quite a few in the Oregon Whitewater association have them.
James (Greenwall) sold a beautiful Maravia cat and frame to a friend of mine a couple summers ago at our annual picnic and it was super shiny and smooth, almost a clear coat type finish to it. I like the idea of a rough boat for paddle rafts, my Sotar is a little slippery and I don't have foot cups. That finish on Bill's cataraft is pretty nice looking though. Bill has been getting plenty of use out of it.
I'm sure glad I am not the only one that agonizes over stuff like this...haha...I have been boating since the 80's; since before self bailers. Therefore, I have rowed and been around many makes of boats starting with Avon bucket boats. My personal boat is a 16 foot NRS expedition boat and a 14 foot "wide" NRS boat. They handle awesome but the 16 footer is heavy. The "heavy" part is most painful when loading and unloading. I don't notice it at all in the water. I chose the hypaplon boat as this is what I am used to and I have had the same repair kit for decades. No need for a bunch of different materials in my kit.
Having said that, since all of the popular manufacturers make great boats, I think it just depends on what the best deal is. I have friends with all of the boats mentioned in the previous posts. They are all good! We go on everything from the Salt in AZ, to the Canyon, Snake, Salmon, and small rivers in Montana etc. If I could "re-do" my purchase, I would have bought an 18footer as my big water boat as there is enough room for EVERYTHING especially, on a long trip. The 16 footer is more versatile as it is small enough to row down smaller stuff. Just load it light and it will float high. I see so many great deals on smaller boats, you could think about a small boat when your kids are old enough to row their own.
We bought a 156D Aire from Glacier Rafts used, when they were upgrading boats. We went big on the frame since we saved money on the rubber. It is not that much heavier than our old NRS Otter 14 foot. We now have two high school girls and their friends and assorted crap. Lots of room. We did a main Salmon trip last summer and loaded that thing to the gills. I love the floor. Your feet aren't constantly wet. It is just a beast through whitewater. You can maneuver well and even I can row it easily. And even if you blow it that floor and tubes float you sideways through stuff that would have flipped our Otter in a heartbeat. Haven't rowed a Sotar and we really looked at them hard when we were looking, but saved lots of $$$$ by going the way we did. If an outfitter like Glacier uses them that's a good recommend too.
Most people think I come on here to try and advertise or prove myself or who knows what else. In all reality mountainbuzz is the enquirer of the industry ,some amusing things pop up but mainly a bunch of useless info from people pretending to be rafters and passing on bad info.
I am actually here doing research for a thesis paper on human interaction from behind the keyboard. They are all my monkies and I make them dance.
Damn James, you got us. You had us going all that time. Golly gosh you're just one hell of a comedian. And the few people you screwed with shady business practices, that was just one big prank by you, or were they in on the gag and just actors you hired??
I think I ended up with a different used 20 yr old Hyside, probably not your old boat Elkhaven - I got it and put it together two years ago. Mine's a 14', still has kick at each end, but we'll see after getting beat on for a few more seasons.
Back to the original post, I don't think a 14' would work for more than three people on a multi-day - me, my two boys, packing carefully in my 14' .... heck, give me a 15'...
I don't want to steal the OP's thread, but am having a similar dilemma. I had intended on ordering a Sotar 14 SL, but waited until the sale started today, to find out the boat wont be ready for at 2+ months. I have a June 9 MF permit, and that just doesn't work.
So that leaves me with a new set of choices. My tops are these- Aire 143D, NRS E-140, or Maravia Zephyr.
They go up in both size and price, but lets say that cost is not an issue (which of course it is), I am trying to weigh daily use (which will primarily be fishing) with longer and bigger water trips. The Zephyr seems like an awful lot of boat for fishing in SW WA, Oregon and MT, but awesome for the bigger trips. The 143D seems like the best size day-to-day. And significantly cheaper. The E140 is shorter, but wider, and kind or a beast.
Any thoughts?
Dave
Did I miss where you said how many peeps you need to float? I'm a family of five and love my 156d which appears to be very similar to the zephyr. If I had say wife and one kid I would have loved to get a 143d. Between the two there is a huge difference in carrying ability. Some days I wish my boat was smaller but it would rule out the multiday trips. I use the Aire as an example as I'm very familiar with them. My personal opinion worry more about getting the right size than make. All those listed will last but getting the wrong size is a problem that's not easily remedied.
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What about a Maravia Diablo, that's their 14' diminishing tube boat. If you're going to compare apples to apples.
I'd say it's a bummer that Sotar is 2 months out! It think the SL is a badass fishing rig. My next choice would be an approprately sized Maravia, I think. 143 D's not a bad option, just not my favorite and I have several buddies that have them. You really can't go wrong with any of them honestly. You'll love what ever your in when that day comes.
I looked at the Diablo, but it is really narrow at 6'3". Sized almost like a Aire SDP. Also, as I looked closely, I realized that it was really a diminished tube version on one of their New waves- no handles, only 3 air chambers.
I am bummed about the sotar, but I should have realized it was a possibility. I'd even drawn up a REALLY cool color scheme. But if you snooze.... I guess.
My last boat was an aire, and I really liked it, but partly I just want to try something else.
I know you don't want to hear this, but I bought mine on the first day of the fall sale a few years ago. Actually Cheryl took my order the night before (we'd been chatting for a few weeks) and ran the card first thing in the morning. It was at my door 12 days latter!
I guess you'd done your homework. I was not aware that the Diablo was narrower (though it now rings a bell) and definitely not aware it was 3 chamber.
I looked at a Strike and they're only 2 chambered. I didn't like that idea at all.
LOVE my Zephyr~ it rows great. If I had to have one boat, that would be it. I fish from a 14' Sotar cat with a modular frame. I can rig it for one or for two. As a solo boat, it's really easy to row and sporty. I would be fine with a few frame mods on my Zephyr for fishing- but it would be a lot of boat for solo fishing trips.
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Currently it is just my wife, dog, and I. But, our family is looking to expand a bit. My last boat was a 143d, and it was plenty big for almost everything I do, but I'm just thinking about trying something different. My 143 was considered big amongst my friends at the time, and I carried a lot of the collective gear on Smith trips. Now, I don't get to spend any day I want on the river, and am willing to deal with a boat that is a bit big on day trips for comfort and space on bigger water. I'm buying this while holding a June 9 MFS ticket, and anticipate lotsa water. Hence the appeal of bigger boats.
The rest of the time I'll rig it to fish.
Sounds like a 15 to 16 boat it is, as I said I really like my 156D I think the diminished tubes help it feel sportier and also created space. My kids are always wanting splashed which the diminished tubes also help with.
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Cool to see this post go some distance, I posted the original question a long time ago - or so it seems.
For more reasons than cost, I went with a Maravia. I like the guys in Boise. Since the purchase - I have no regrets. I was very happy with the customer support and I am very happy with the boat. I'm able to keep the boat inflated all year, storage isn't an issue.
I got the Cyclone - equivalent to the Wili 1.5. If anything, I'd probably go a little bigger for a family boat - but we've been fine with our 15.5 length. Rowing through some bigger water - I was happy with the tracking and how the boat took hits.
I love the floor in my Maravia - but also love the floor in a friend's Sotar.
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