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new raft advice - sotar or aire

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51K views 104 replies 32 participants last post by  Bgood505 
#1 ·
In a position to invest in a long term boat for the family - going to finally put my patched 16' Oregon WhiteWater to rest. 2 kids, getting more into white water, want a boat good for 4 people for up to week long trips - but also for some fishing on MT rivers. I'm used to a 16' even though it was probably overkill 75% of the time.

I want a boat that's going to last and I have the blessing of my wife - of sorts. I've narrowed it down to a Sotar or an Aire. I understand, apples and oranges. Both good boats. I'm entertaining the 14' on both, the 15' ST and the 156D.

When I price everything out (I need a new frame too), I can get into an Aire for about 1500 less. If money wasn't an issue, I'd likely jump on a Sotar. But that extra cash could get me a stern seat, an anchor - better cooler, a canopy, etc.

In anyone's opinion, is it worth me pushing my budget for the Sotar (I want the chafe too, which adds on) - or is it over the top, both are great boats and I should just focus on the extras?

Thanks.
 
#32 ·
I own 2 Hysides and love them. I'll leave the question of manufacturer to those with more knowledge of the Aire and Sotar lines.
My question is:
Why do you think you see so many 14' boats on the buzz, and so few 16' boats?

I would say the reason is that many of us start with a 14' boat thinking that it will be cheaper and the lack of cargo and passenger room won't be a problem. Then, after a few years, we realize how happy we would be with a bit more space. Then we sell our 14' boats and take the hit on the depreciation. You don't see many used 16' boats, because most of the 16' owners have already made the expensive mistake of trying to make due with a smaller rig.

I have a Hyside Pro 16 XT for multi days with the family, and a Mini Max with a super light day frame setup. Couldn't be happier with either. Well, that's not true, wish I could justify an 18'...
 
#33 ·
I know I'm going to catch hell for this one but I'm really starting to wonder. First, puncture resistance is not the same as abrasion resistance and I don't think the Sotar is any more puncture resistant than the Aire. Everyone says they are more abrasion resistant but I can't find anything to back that up. In the last three years I have visited tons of commercial outfits in five states and the Sotar boats didn't have any less problems than the Aires. In fact the only boats that showed an advantage were the Maravias. Honestly, Is there any independent research or test to confirm the claim about the materials? I'm not saying that it is one way or the other but I'm simply not convinced. And, I've seen A LOT of boats in the last three years, one thing I can say for certain is that the Sotar material is not "much" stronger in any form.

nubjam, you are going to hear a lot of stuff from a lot of people and my two cents are that there are 6 High end boat makers that all fit in the "top end" category. On a scale of 1 to 10 they all range in the 7-9 area as far as "strong" materals go. They will all last you for the majority of your boating life. I personally love Aire boats because of the Warranty, inner bladder and easy of repair and the materiel is still very strong, if not quite as strong as some of the others, but keep in mind that Aire boats can be back on the water within minutes of a puncture and then they are the only boat that can have a patch welded from the inside so that it is stronger than it was before.

Also nubjam, make sure you check your PMs
 
#42 ·
Shapp, why are you calling me a troll? I'm not just trying to stir poo here, I'm honestly interested in finding tangible proof. Everyone says this material is better or that material, but all I've ever seen is word of mouth and some of those people are very knowledgeable so I don't want to demean their knowledge, but from what I've seen I'm not convinced. An honest lab proven test of materials would not be hard to conduct this day in age and I'm wondering if it already exists.

And I agree that both boats are great as well in fact I argued that there are 6 manufacturers that are great.
 
#38 ·
I use PVC flylines and I use urethane fly lines. PVC barely lasts a season- urethane lasts and lasts. I've yet to wear one out, actually. Clean it and it looks like new. The PVC cracks and takes on crud that you cannot get out of the material.

I like Aire boats- but I believe their urethane is an upgrade for sure.

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#39 ·
This may have been asked and answered, but how are you storing it? If you can keep in on the trailer, and sheltered all year, then a shiny SOTAR would be what I say since it is what you said. Get another year out of your old rig and wait for the fall say where the price will be 20$ off. They always go on sale.

I don't think you need the top chafe. Wait until (a decade or more) you start seeing real wear on you tube tops then send the boat in and have it all serviced and tidied and add wear strips then. Unless of course you just need that different colored accent to get afloat...

If you want to save a bit of dough, and especially if you want to store the boat rolled up, look at a quality used Hypalon boat. They really do store better that way than PVC or Urethane. You can go new Hypalon too of course.... Good luck.

AIREs are great. I own one. I roll it up wet and store it in the garage... Its my hard-use creeker/ELF boat. I don't expect it to last as long as my other boats. Sometimes if I haven't gotten out in a while, it smells when I open it up. Sometimes it grows a funny slime layer too--like it's pissed at me for not storing it properly and wants me to fall in the river...
 
#41 ·
I own an Aire and a Sotar. They are both great boats. They were bought about that same time and used about the same amount. You will be happy with either. The length is what will make you mad. Go big or go home as the saying goes.

As for top chafe The Sotar has it the Aire, not so much. What do I do? Put pipe insulation on the frame. I do it to both frames if going on multi day. I have seen rafters put different material on their boats; carpet, carpet backing, canvas, and others I can not think of now.

Any ways just do what everyone else does. Pick one then swear it is the best and the other brands suck!

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#44 ·
I don't have any lab proof but am absolutely convinced that urethane is best material for both puncture and abrasion resistance.

My outfitter friends who use the urethane versions of the AIRE boats say it's worth the extra money.

Here's an article I wrote a couple years ago that discusses the pros and cons of each material and raft manufacturer:

Raft Materials and Manufacturers | Northwest Rafting Co.

I really appreciate this discussion and am learning a lot from each post. Thank you everyone.
 
#45 ·
I am not sure if there is any new info going on here this debate on the same fabrics has been going on for years. You guys are all behind the curve , I am over here BBQing Elvaloy! The base scrim and weave has a lot to do with puncture resistance. Thats on pressure test at 7lbs
Green Material property
 
#46 ·
I've had 2 Aire kayaks, one Sotar kayak, and one Sotar raft. I've had really good luck with the Kayaks from both brands. The Raft is a 2007 model with around 1000 river miles on it by now. It doesn't have frame wear protection. I bought it used from a friend 4 years ago now. I had to put one patch on it right after I got it on the tube in the stern on the inside of the hull. I found 3 other rub marks on the outer shell of the hull that looked like minor surface abrasions but leaked with soapy water applied. I used some glue to seal them. I am pretty sure the bow chamber leaks somewhere, I leave it inflated on the trailer in my garage and its the first to go soft when it sits. (like over the course of a month)
It is really light, mine is a 14' ST. Bare and inflated I can shoulder it on its side and walk with it a distance. I balanced it on my head once. I'd get the chafes if you get a Sotar. My tubes have bite marks from people pulling straps out from under the frame. I can R2 it pretty easy for such a big boat. I have a 5 and 7 year old and we did a 3 day overnight trip last summer, it worked because someone else carried the majority of the kitchen. I can fit all of the kitchen stuff on it, but it will be pretty packed by then.
Aires are great boats, I don't think you'd be unhappy with them at all. My impression is that the Aires are easier to repair, and a lot of the issues I've seen with my Sotar would be impossible on a bladder boat. I think for overall boating performance it will be hard to beat the Sotar. The other nice thing about Sotar is you can customize your boat, add and delete what you want. The other thing I'd want is a center mount D ring on the side, but a 15 might already have one, the 14's do not. You can go custom color, add an inch to your tube diameter, shorten or lengthen by 6 inches, etc.
If you are going to store the boat inflated, that makes life easy. If you are going to roll it up, I think the Aire would have the advantage there. I rolled mine up once, NOTHING like rolling a Hypalon boat. In fact, if you are rolling it up, I'd be looking at a Hyside or NRS boat instead.
 
#50 ·
Maybe you missed my post ;)
It has its place, If you are a manufacturer of only urethane boats probably not much of a reason to use it. I use urethane and PVC to provide different cost points, hence the Elvaloy. Osseous feel free to air test and inspect my welding on my cat tubes over others who have been doing it for 20 years.Here is a photo of a brand new tube that was built by a "reputable manufacturer" who is a pioneer in welding PVC. If you want you can wander around with blinders on and swallow up internet BS, my advice would be to actually look at products up close and see whats going on new in the undustry instead of going off what has been done the same for years with no additional innovation. One thing I can tell you with 100 percent certainty when we build something it is built 100 percent quality. Just think you never even heard of Elvaloy until I told you, and that is just about old news. Think of me like a government project, you see something I make, I am already 5 years ahead in technology of what you are seeing today it just isn't public info yet. Make it a great day!
Grass Automotive exterior Net Bumper
 
#48 ·
Found this on Jack's Plastic Welding site.

Elvaloy is the trade name of a fabric that was once used by Achilles. It had great welding properties, but it was hard to glue to. Even when it is in a 10% Elvaloy to 90 % PVC base we had trouble with some of the glued parts. They needed extra care in the preparation process. Elvaloy is not widely used as of the year 2001. The Seamens corporation contiues to sell a product called XR7 fabric that is 10% elvaloy, and we understand that the chemical elvaloy is the stuff that makes the PVC soft. The Seamens company claims that unlike other pvc fabrics the Elvaloy does not migrate to the glue and weaken it. So when it is glued properly, I stays glued longer. I would like to say that this marerial welds extreemly nicely, and all air holding parts should be welded.

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#54 ·
once again, discussion of 2 raft brands has turned into a commercial for a third brand

not saying the third brand is not comparable/equal/or even possibly superior to the original 2 from the OPs post, but the tact and venue for the continuing commercial for the third brand is getting old.
 
#56 ·
I don't really think it's a troll, my feeling is that the op just went light on the research but either way it's been an interesting rehash.

Nubjam,

FWIW, I have a 15 sotar and was in a very similar situation as you when I bought that boat. The big exception was the durability concern. I really wasn't worried about it, they're both (all of the usual suspects actually) durable and issues with punctures or abrasion are going to be much more dependent on the operator than the fabric. That's just my opinion.

I made my choice on design and since it's only been lightly glossed over on this thread I'll say my $.02.

I'm a huge fan of diminishing tubes. A lot more room bow and stern, lower (generally) wind profile and they typically have a more gentle transition from bow/stern to straight section. This isn't always the case, for instance the DD series seems to be rather abrupt and Maravias run a longer straight section and then turn it up a little more abruptly too. I think this transition is important when fishing as it lowers the resistance between boat and water, taking less effort to move the boat over the water (independent of flow). My choice really came down to an Aire and a Sotar SL, possibly a strike.

For me the straw that broke the camels back was that I went to buy a 6 year old aire 156d. The price was totally right and I figured I could deck it out to the 9's with all the money I was going to save. When I got there, it was sitting on a trailer, fully inflated and I was shocked at how little shape was there. It looked nothing like the wireframes, there was no continuous curve and very little bow and stern kick. I had noticed that Aires wire frames were a bit flattering, even to new boats but this boat was FLAT. In essence it had flattened out over time, probably during storage or sitting in the sun (it was also in much worse shape than I had been lead to believe) so I walked away. I really wanted a truly continuous curve (like a rockered ski, water ski or driftboat). I've since noticed that many old aire's appear flattened out. I don't know why that is but I've seen an old 143 D sitting right next to new and there is a huge difference. I've noticed it on the commercial fleets on the Gallatin as well; shiny new aires next to faded flat (profile) aires.

I settled on either a Strike or an SL following my disappointment with 156D. I just needed to decide which route. The strike is flatter, less rocker and asymmetrical, I liked the idea but was worried it was too flat and I'd just be pushing water with epiece when loaded down. So ultimately I went with the standard design SL, which I love. The only thing I'd do differently is get them to reduce the kick a little, by maybe 2" or so.

Another consideration mentioned upthread is that it is a MUCH stiffer boat than any of my friends Aires. I've messed around with it on the river and my boat will comparably stiff at 1.5 psi than my buddies aire's at 2.5 psi. At 2.5 psi the sotar is a board. You might ask why this is important to me, well I spend much less time managing air. I can inflate the boat to just less than 1 3/4 psi in 50 degree morning air and in the 80-90 degree heat of the afternoon it'll be less than 2.5; well within spec. So then I shove it in the water (it goes back to 1 3/4) and I drink a beer while my buddies are pumping. Not to mention that stiffer is easier to row and way easier to stand and fish out of.

I'm certain you'll be happy with what ever you get, but I just wanted to pass along my observations and opinions to add to the information overload. Oh and yes, with a family bigger is better. With that said, my family of 4 and two springers fit fine on the 15'er; for day trips and weeklong trips alike.
 
#57 ·
Elkhaven - thanks for your thoughts and opinions. I appreciate what you said, exactly the type of nuances I was hoping to hear about.

I appreciate everyone's input. I've been a lurker for quite some time and didn't mean to troll this topic. I've read through the past posts on the buzz about all the different boats - I just felt the discussion between Sotar and Aire was not entirely up to date, most in depth posts were 4-5+ years old. I know Sotar has had some management changes in that time, didn't know if anything had changed I could learn about. I actually think this conversation has brought up details that I've not heard about in other posts - so I appreciate the dialogue.
 
#59 ·
Yeah - I saw those Maravia deals, they confuse the situation on my end only because I could afford those. Not sure why, but I had written Maravia off. A new Willy 1.5 is on par with a new Sotar price wise - for the 15'. And those used/demo deals are pretty nice.

I assume the urathane on the Maravia is rough - correct? Not a deal breaker, just curious.
 
#60 ·
Yeah - I saw those Maravia deals, they confuse the situation on my end only because I could afford those. Not sure why, but I had written Maravia off. A new Willy 1.5 is on par with a new Sotar price wise - for the 15'. And those used/demo deals are pretty nice.

I assume the urathane on the Maravia is rough - correct? Not a deal breaker, just curious.
Depends, you can get it either way. One of my friends has the "textured" urethane ( I am not a fan) and another has the glossy, smooth finish. I have an AIRE 156R and love it, but maravia's rafts are a great choice.
 
#63 ·
Maravia roughness is only on the chafe area. Makes it easier to walk on. With a frame it isn't an issue.

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You could, and I believe still can, get a boat that has the "rough" finish over the whole surface. Likewise, I don't think the chafe area is necessarily the "rough" finish...I believe you can get it either way.
 
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