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How do you estimate needed groover capacity?

25K views 59 replies 27 participants last post by  M3mphis 
#1 ·
Do any of you use some sort or formula to determine how much groover capacity you need for a group trip?

Thanks in advance.
 
#2 ·
Calculate the number of user days on the trip: users x days on the river = user days

The manufacturer should state a number of user days the groover is designed for.

If you don't have that info or if you're justy using rocket boxes, consider that the standard Eco-Safe tank that fits inside a rocket box has something like a 55-user day capacity.

Does this help?

-AH
 
#4 ·
Yes. I didn't notice that "rating" on the eco-safe. It actually says "good for approx. 50 uses." SO...50 uses is a little vague. That would assume about .11 gallons per "use." Maybe I could just figure that each person needs .2 gallons of space per day.
 
#7 ·
You know in my camper, I have a little portable toilet like this: Porta Potti Portable Toilets - 260B - Thetford 92859 - Portable Toilets - Camping World

I use generous amounts of the liquid Aqua-Kem and quick dissolve RV toilet paper. Dumping that little tank is always a breeze. Everything breaks down into a very easy to dump liquid. For my boat's toilet, I'll use the same TP and chemical. The dry stuff doesn't make much sense to me.
 
#13 ·
chemicals

I have the eco safe system for many years now and am happy with it

Early on, I emailed eco safe and asked them about the life of the plastic insert box.

Reply was they did not know how long the plastic would last since the ones they have experience with were not wearing out, but long as I did not use the super strong cleaners and keep the liners out of the sun in a rocket box, probably last at least my lifetime.

They told me the stronger cleaners have chemicals that harm the tank plastic. If memory correct they specifically mentioned formaldehyde as being harmful. They did not give me a specific brand but recommended only products with organic ingredients. Most of the big box sporting goods stores will carry organic and non organic cleaners and smell good stuff in the RV supply section.

They also recommend using the more organic easier to break down toilet paper. Costs a bit more but does break down better and make clean out easier. When I do not have access to the organic toilet paper I have had good results with the better (more soft to the touch) brands breaking down easier than the "slick feeling" cheaper brands.

I found out the hard way that what works for me is to not fill to the top with poop etc, but on take out day have a bit of extra water added to the eco safe's and some of the less strong dish washer / hand wash liquids. The rocking motion of the raft will help to liquify the eco safe contents and make clean out easier.

Also it will not take long before those on poop cleaning duty will check out the groover at the morning take apart / pack procedure and do their best to keep only poop and toilet paper in the groover. Those little foil wrapped single use cleaning pads are great and I use them myself but for sure be careful and tear off the edge of the foil bag then place the soiled cleaning pad back in it's foil container and put the entire deal in the carry out trash rocket box. Same for other things like tampons and any other materials that don't break down easily. Whomever gets groover clean out after the trip will very much appreciate everyone's help.
 
#15 ·
I do not mind at all. I would not put the liquid chemical in for the same reason we try not to urinate in the rocket box. It is corrosive to steel! Urine and other liquids can speed up the deterioration of the rocket box causing them to leak. This is the reason for the dry bleach sprinkle that is commonly used to treat the sewage. I would not want to carry a leaky shit can wrapped in a compactor bag in my boat.
 
#18 ·
I'll never forget the time my river buddy and I were in the camp toilet aisle at Sportsmans Warehouse, sniffing the poo powders to see which one we liked best. We got some pretty strange looks from the salespeople. :D

We figure groover space like Andy does ( users x days = user days) and haven't reached the danger zone so far. Best to plan ahead though, and carry an extra tank/bucket. If you have kids or more men folk on the trip, that may skew your numbers a little.
 
#22 ·
It always seems to be a variation of "pooberry" for some reason. Except groover tamer which I just can't afford.

I would not put the liquid chemical in for the same reason we try not to urinate in the rocket box. It is corrosive to steel! Urine and other liquids can speed up the deterioration of the rocket box causing them to leak.
Urine is corrosive to steel? Guess I have never noticed a difference between it and water. That said none of my friends use groovers or rocket boxes without annually sealing them with multiple coats of Rustoleum. That could be why we have never had a problem.

Still would wonder why urine would be a culprit considering how benign and non-reactive it generally tends to be. I mean we are just talking about diluted nitrogen and electrolytes in water.

Phillip
 
#20 ·
When my groover gets 1/2 full I just camp next to an outfitter or a party from Colorado and dump my waste into their groover on a late night mission. It adds to the excitement! Its become a tradition among many of my friends.
 
#27 ·
For GC trips, I calculate total user days, figure out from the outfitter's or manufacturer's capacity stats how many groovers will be necessary, and then always add ONE MORE.
Nothing's worse than having to use a groover that is getting max-ed out. Nobody likes it.
Groovers are cheap to rent, rocket boxes are inexpensive to buy, so why not call it good when it's only 2/3 or 3/4 full, instead of using every square inch available?
 
#30 ·
Uh-oh, you have a steep learning curve to climb my friend! Read some regulations on rivers, please!

Umm, gee I am sorry if I sounded patronizing. Reading back through the thread there is no mention of "newbie". There has also been no mention of what river you may be looking at running. I am sorry to offend. My point was basically that a little research elsewhere may be in your best interest.

From by experience its; The more dry the environment, the more likely you pee in the river." the solution to pollution is dilution! But the wetter forest climates let you pee on shore if the water flow is at ELF. I try not to pee on beaches or bushes or vegetation.
I also agree with the DirtBag on this.

No one knows it all. But the best advice I ever got in my life was on my first commercial trip. I tried to do it all and would constantly ask "what can I do now?"

TL: "Ask with your eyes, not your mouth."

Safe travels.
 
#31 ·
Umm, gee I am sorry if I sounded patronizing. Reading back through the thread there is no mention of "newbie". There has also been no mention of what river you may be looking at running. I am sorry to offend. My point was basically that a little research elsewhere may be in your best interest.



I also agree with the DirtBag on this.

No one knows it all. But the best advice I ever got in my life was on my first commercial trip. I tried to do it all and would constantly ask "what can I do now?"

TL: "Ask with your eyes, not your mouth."

Safe travels.
I'm not offended. I just don't understand your angle. I'm not sure why you are assuming that I'm not doing research elsewhere. I also would think that asking these questions in an open discussion rafting forum would be entirely appropriate as a PART of my learning. If you don't appreciate the questions, then why answer at all let alone in a condescending manner. Water under the bridge at this point. I do appreciate the insights you've shared after some additional prodding so thank you for your willingness to teach.
 
#32 ·
and now tp?

To torque this discussion a bit: anyone want to share their formula for calculating tp for long trips? There's been some good discussion of groover management here, and maybe this belongs in "trip planner" forum, but given "normal" menu for a week-long trip (or say 15 nights in GC), what formula do you use to arrive at # of rolls of tp? Yes, different rolls can be single or two ply, pleated, scented, etc. - and the RV stuff that is more easily broken down also tends to be flimsier and smaller than your industrial strength Costco brand ("Kirkland Bath Tissue" -but don't use for bathing!) - but what's your rough method of calculating (and then add two or 4 rolls depending on trip length and composition of party). Look forward to the replies - and "methods"...
 
#33 ·
To torque this discussion a bit: anyone want to share their formula for calculating tp for long trips? There's been some good discussion of groover management here, and maybe this belongs in "trip planner" forum, but given "normal" menu for a week-long trip (or say 15 nights in GC), what formula do you use to arrive at # of rolls of tp? Yes, different rolls can be single or two ply, pleated, scented, etc. - and the RV stuff that is more easily broken down also tends to be flimsier and smaller than your industrial strength Costco brand ("Kirkland Bath Tissue" -but don't use for bathing!) - but what's your rough method of calculating (and then add two or 4 rolls depending on trip length and composition of party). Look forward to the replies - and "methods"...
I think we figure one roll per person per week, then bring 2-4 extra rolls. You should always have at least 2 extras in case someone doesn't store a roll properly and it gets wet. I tried the TP that was supposed to give you more sheets per roll, and it did not go over well. Too thin. Go with the fluffy stuff, but get the double roll. I would also suggest a TP discussion at the time that you have your groover talk (we call it potty training), especially with newbies. TP is a precious commodity that should not be squandered. We use the Gamma bucket system, and I see newbies who make a "deposit" then cover it in the bucket with a couple layers of TP so it's "hidden." Drives me nuts. It's poop people....get over it & stop wasting the TP!!! Sorry. Just had to get that off my chest. ;)
 
#34 ·
Don't take this as a way to estimate usage but,

several of the groups I raft with (especially if it is a full permit float) do this.

The TL or whomever brings the groover gear will estimate the amount of TP needed, go by Sam's / Cosco etc and pick up what they think is needed as part of the group trip costs..

Then on rig night dinner when we discuss the trip and explain to newbies how the cook teams, raft load/unload, camp set up groover use etc work for that trip - I think most trips do something similar. The groover guru will toss out a roll of TP to each person to stash in their dry bag.

Most of the time, every one has a extra roll of TP to take home as a souvenir of the trip. However I can remember a few trips (lots of DO casseroles on the menu) that we did have a call for dry bag TP. Just a groover safety procedure that rarely is used but when it is used, it saves a lot of problems from happening.
 
#36 ·
several of the groups I raft with (especially if it is a full permit float) do this.

The TL or whomever brings the groover gear will estimate the amount of TP needed, go by Sam's / Cosco etc and pick up what they think is needed as part of the group trip costs..

Then on rig night dinner when we discuss the trip and explain to newbies how the cook teams, raft load/unload, camp set up groover use etc work for that trip - I think most trips do something similar. The groover guru will toss out a roll of TP to each person to stash in their dry bag.

Most of the time, every one has a extra roll of TP to take home as a souvenir of the trip. However I can remember a few trips (lots of DO casseroles on the menu) that we did have a call for dry bag TP. Just a groover safety procedure that rarely is used but when it is used, it saves a lot of problems from happening.
Reminds me of my first sea kayaking trip. At the beginning of the weeklong trip we were each given two zip lock bags. One with a roll of TP, the other full of candy. We were told to use & protect the TP wisely because that was all we were going to get. We were also told that the candy could come in handy towards the end of the trip if you weren't careful with your TP. There was candy for TP bartering going on by the end of the week. :)
 
#37 ·
TP

I tend to pack 1 2-ply roll per day for every 6 users. And I will add 1 extra roll per day because I'd rather have more than less available. I prefer a soft & strong version of the stuff & don't hesitate to smash it flat when packing. It's true that women (like me ;-)) & kids can need more on occasion - this formula seems to cover those needs. Sniffly noses can use quite a bit too, so I pack an extra ziplock to make one roll available near the kitchen if needed. Yes, I generally bring some home, & have a starter for next trip. I have a great drybag lined with a compactor bag for storage with double protection - it will squish in anywhere rather than taking up room in a drybox. Call me over-protective, but I've been on a trip where the TL had to have a ration rant at the campfire. And, I've been on a Grand when other trips have begged for the stuff. :lol:
SuperPuma's better half & trip organizer.
 
#38 ·
TP

I second the comment about covering up the deposit - such a waste! How about the delicate souls who fake their turn at cleaning up & pack up a less than clean groover - naughty!
I have a short pre-trip discussion that I provide for young women & recommend that they bring a personal tp roll for trash deposits rather than relying on the group stash of tp. They always thank me for addressing an issue that they wonder about & may not know how to address.
SuperPuma's better half
 
#40 ·
I personally wouldn't use any kind of wipe, even flushable in my groover. Two reasons - #1 - I don't want to take any chance whatsoever of jamming up a scat machine. #2 - We work so hard at teaching the newbies not to put anything other than TP in the groover. Keeping wipes out of the groover is an ongoing battle, so why confuse the issue with a flushable wipe?

Do the flushable wipes break down as fully as TP? Do they break down as fast as TP? Are they ok for use with the river rangers? The scat machines on the MS & MF get jammed up at least once or twice every season, and wipes are usually the culprit. Maybe flushable wipes are ok, but I don't want to take a chance.
 
#44 ·
I was on this trip, 48 people. I asked the TL if I should bring my groover along he said wellb I think we have enough. So I brought mine any way and let him know I was going to bring mine as aback up if we bneeded it. We get to camp the groover goes up next mormning groovers full, we did the stick method, i go to the Tl "hey wheres your groover?" Oh i didnt bring it cause you brought yours. I replied yeah as a back up. needless to say about 10 of us got together and dropped some immodium to save the childeren from a horrible groover experince the next day. So 48 people = 1.2 days of use, and i will never leave my groover and spare tank at home if I go on another one of those trips
 
#49 ·
1)50 user days per Rocket Box.
2)two rolls tp per day.
3)I dump at Wildcat Hill in Flagstaff so "wipies" and "feminine products" can be deposited with out guilt... But ya need to figure this out before ya go.
4)Bag two rolls tp in a gallon ziplock and store it in the empty boxes. Wet tp is useless. 5)Whizbucket right next to groover cuts down on urine in the poop.
6)Dry oxi bleach about a tablespoon and set up and take down.
7)A spray bottle of Odo ban, a few good spritzes on set up and take down.
8)Do NOT let the unwashed swap the lid on the supply box with the lid on the actual pooper.
9) 1 sleeve of Clorox wipes makes tidying up your "riser" after sloppy poopers much more pleasant.
10) Gloves. See above.
Did I leave anything out? hmmmm.
Happy Landings
 
#53 ·
Schutzie brings is ancient wisdom to the discussion.

Our "toilet training" consisted of explaining that toilet paper was a more valuable commodity than anything we had besides beer. Each user was permitted one square of toilet paper per use. As the pilgrims mouths dropped in disbelief we would explain;

Take your square of toilet paper and fold it into a triangle. Fold it again so you have a smaller triangle. Tear off about 1/4" of the tip where all the folds meet. This tiny piece is very important!! DO NOT LOOSE IT!!

Do your business.

When finished with your business open up your square of toilet paper. You will note a round hole in the center. Stick your middle finger through the hole.

Wipe.

Carefully wrap the toilet paper around your finger and carefully and thoroughly wipe your finger clean.

Dispose of toilet paper in groover.

And that tiny piece you tore off your toilet paper square?? Clean your finger nail with it. We may be heathens, but we are clean heathens.

Carry on.

Oh, and as to peeing in the river or on the beach??

Naw

We always peed in D-9s tennis shoes. I mean, the way his feet smelled anyway, we could have shit in them, but he might have noticed that. If D9 wasn't on the trip we'd find someone elses shoes.

I mean, you gotta have some fun on the river.

Our next lesson will be catching and cooking duck with nothing more than a single can of beer.
 
#54 ·
One last thought on groovers on the Grand. Just rent them even if you own your own. If you rent them from the same company that you use for your shuttle at the end of the trip they just go away and no one has to deal with it. The cost split between everyone is minimal.
 
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