Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-15-2015   #11
John the welder's Avatar
Delta, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1971
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 161
Unless you have a light weight packable boat what's the point of a light weight packable frame? Other products you could look at are seats, light and packable. Years ago I made an inflatable seat for our home made pack rafts, worked well. I have a friend who works with wounded warriors and they need a seat that will hold someone in a boat but not trap them in during a flip. Maybe an inflatable seat could be made to work? Stoves are another area that could use some attention as far as weight, packability, and efficient use of fuel. White gas instead of propane? Shappattack has a good list and I just wanted to add to it.

John the welder is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #12
Paul7's Avatar
Post Falls, Idaho
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 781
I'd be worried about durability with abrasion during transportation. I know Mt bikes in carbon become questionable with any damage. Shops routinely replace carbon parts when scratched such as handle bars.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app

Paul7 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #13
zbaird's Avatar
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 884
What these boys are getting at is that the frame is not the heaviest and bulkiest item of the typical raft system. It is also a necessary weight since it is under so much stress and relied on so heavily. If the frame breaks, you are hosed. Carbon is kinda wasted on such an item since it will almost certainly not last. As pointed out earlier, the types of stresses put on a raft frame are exactly the types of stresses that carbon doesn't do well with, mostly the abrasion. Also, once you add a second water jug,drop a 200# cooler, box and or passengers in the boat, the 20 pounds saved on the frame will mostly go unnoticed. You would have to have all components that were super light weight to really get the benefits of your labors. If you do go with a frame, make sure it is geared towards a super light weight setup for one person on a small raft or cat. Make it so that it is also a backpack frame that could be used to haul all the rest of the package. I'm thinking 2 piece that breaks down at the sleeves in the middle that you will certainly need to support the oar towers. Innovation is good but I'm with these guys in thinking that your resources, efforts and genius are better spent on another project. Let us know when you figure out the hi-lux thing.
zach baird
zbaird is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #14
East of the Pine beatle, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,363
Carbon Fiber Groover

Sent from my SM-N900V using Mountain Buzz mobile app
Osseous is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #15
shappattack's Avatar
Up North, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,148
how about dry suit gaskets that perform as good as latex for water proofness, but don't get rubber cancer and are super tough so they can't rip either.
shappattack is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #16
Whetstone's Avatar
Boise, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1976
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 362
A great thread just because of the ideas it's getting kicked around. I for one think that the drybox ann cooler refinement suggestions are best. It seems there must be a way to manufacture a light weight, sturdy, full size plastic dry box that costs under $200. Not a NRS Canyon box. Shapp's got a bunch of great thoughts for sure.

Sent from my SM-G530T using Mountain Buzz mobile app
Whetstone is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #17
elkhaven's Avatar
Belgrade, Montana
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Sep 2013
Posts: 1,660

I like the idea - though I do understand where shapp and others are coming from. But thinking outside the box is how things are revolutionized. Is a carbon fiber frame necessary, economically practical, the best choice - probably not but it might open the door to other ideas or applications.

With that said, I have a dream boat I'd like to build someday and I could see a wood, carbon and metal hybrid being just the answer. I don't know if you are familiar with Cajune boats out of Livingston, but Jason makes wood driftboats that are absolute works of art. My idea is to combine the jist of a wood driftboat with a raft to create a boat that is very light, has a low draft but the stability of wood. So my boat design would be very similar to a RIB, with a wood, glass (or carbon) and metal inner piece built around the inside dimensions of a Sotar SL. The floor of said hard piece would match pretty closely to the bottom of the ibeam floor of an SL, but you would remove the inflatable floor. The hull would be built lighter than a standard drifboat as the inflatable tubes offer significant support but would be built in a very similar manner. Stitch and clue wood with honeycomb composite floor. In Jason's boats this construction is reinforced with glass, but replacing that with carbon and potentially even replacing/thinning the side materials while utilizing carbon would simply be badass. I've got lots of visions but am not great at iterating them in text.

I guess my point is maybe don't think of making a carbon version of existing "frame" designs. I, along with many others here, don't think that is practical, explore other ways of "framing" a raft or cat utilizing composites (including wood/carbon composites if that's allowable) in unconventional methods. Kind of like K2's example - though I personally would like to see the frame inside the craft,leaving the rubber on top exposed (way more comfortable egress/ingress amongst other reasons).

I too live in bzn and would love to help out in any manner possible. I'm not an engineer, but do work for an engineering firm as a geologist/environmental scientist and I attended MSU - Go cats!
Yesterday's gone on down the river and you can't get it back. - Agustus McCrae
elkhaven is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #18
aurora, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 107
Use wood, the ORIGINAL carbon fiber.
Wait... It's been done.
sea hag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #19
Spokane Valley, Washington
Paddling Since: 1966
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 10
Something else to consider is there are multiple ways to make up a composite. In the world of drift boats and sailboats a variety of materials have been used as core materials to build up hulls and decks. For example a honeycomb material with fiberglass laminated to both sides will be much stronger than the material alone. The thicker the initial material the thicker the "i-beam" and the stronger it will be. There are also a variety of foams that have been successfully used. Balsa can be used but the grain must be oriented correctly and any damage must be repaired quickly to prevent water intrusion.

Dependent upon the type and amount of fabric, E-glass, S-glass, Kevlar, carbon fiber reinforcements etc as well as which epoxy resin is being used the greater the resistance to the forces being placed on the structure. Folks have been exploring these materials for several years on both and for several years. Also Resin Research has been doing amazing things with resins that provide both the ability to bend and also remain rigid.

So this same engineering could be applied to dry boxes and coolers as well as to make flat panels that would connect together to replicate a two or three bay big water style frame. Something like horizontal pieces on top of the side tubes. Compartments could be separated with vertical structures to tie the pieces together. A series of sockets / tubing laminated into the side panels would accept corresponding aluminum tubes that would slide into the sockets. The aluminum tubes would be laminated into the vertical members at their tops providing an across the raft connection.

Already existing parts like NRS oar lock towers could be bolted to the flat side panels. There are materials, Starboard is one, used currently in sailboat construction that can be laminated into the structure to provide support and strength to the oarlock tower connection.

Slots can be made in the panels for attachment of straps so that gear maybe fastened to the frame and the frame attached to the raft.

Captain;s boxes can be made, the toughest thing is developing good, cost effective latch and gasket systems. Southco latches work well but are pricey. The cool thing about doing most of this work is it can be done by home builders. Of course you can go to extremes and get involved with vacuum bagging and resin infusion to make things even lighter.

While I currently boat in a wooden drift boat I am hoping to develop a couple of seat boxes and bow and stern sections to add both storage and floatation to my boat. I didn't build it as a decked, big water boat but a trip rowing a raft again down the Grand Canyon reminded me of what I have been missing. Whereas I could refit it with decks I don't have the money to purchase all the materials. I am going to start with home style insulation foam and laminate fiberglass with epoxy on both the interior and exterior surfaces. I will fasten the sides together with epoxy fillets and fiberglass tape. May not be the prettiest boxes ever built but should be sufficient for a trip or two a year.

Composite dories are currently in use in the Grand Canyon and have been successful for several years. Andy Hutchinson is one of the builders I remember. The wooden dories that travel down the canyon are often also composite in structure as they have fiberglass laminated to both the inside and outside of the wood hull.

Good luck on your project.
Drift Boat Rick
amsrick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-15-2015   #20
SLC, Utah
Paddling Since: 1983
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 51
I think the major issues have been covered - cost to weight, damage tolerance, danger in the event of a catastrophic failure, compression strength, etc. As an engineer (with composites experience..), I'd say a common problem I have had with freshly minted engineers is the pursuit of technology for its own sake vs considering the want-to-have and need-to-have features and remaining open to all solutions, even those that aren't especially elegant or innovative. I say that not be snarky because I was as guilty of that as anyone, but because I wish I had learned that lesson earlier.

Makes me think of the current GM ads swiping at Ford asking if you'd rather be in an aluminum or steel cage around a grizzly. You could just as easily ask who wants to fly the first all iron airplane across the Pacific. It's all about the best material for the job.

paulster is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Composite raft trailer decking? riverjunky Whitewater Rafting 8 02-22-2015 05:33 PM
Drilling a composite helmet? Caspian Whitewater Kayaking 2 06-08-2007 03:15 PM
SELLING WHITE J3 BILLED, COMPOSITE HELMET (in denver)!!!! zanester Kayaking | Gear Talk 0 02-26-2007 11:48 AM
Composite Repair Roy Whitewater Kayaking 1 01-12-2007 01:55 PM
Lost Wood Squirt stick and composite boulderite Lost & Found 0 05-15-2006 09:35 PM

» Classified Ads
14' steel raft trailer

posted by groovy

hand made steel welded. This was a commercial trailer used...

Seat welded to cross bar...

posted by Robby

Seat welded to cross bar 1.5" bar

aluminum "trailer"/box...

posted by Johnny

I am selling an aluminum frame component designed to hold...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:30 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.