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Assigned camps on the Rogue

14K views 60 replies 37 participants last post by  fajawiebe 
#1 ·
Just curious.

I haven't been on the Salmon lately. Do you think an "assigned camp" type of program would work on the Rogue?

I usually do the Rogue a couple times a summer and my biggest frustration is watching all the commercial gear boats heading downstream to grab the biggest/best camps. I typically have large groups and have gotten caught searching for suitable camps later in the day when most are already taken.

Just took Oregon State's "Boater survey" and it got me thinking.....
 
#33 ·
Correct me if I’m wrong, my boating experience is exclusively in the Northwest, but I don’t think there is a campsite system currently in place that requires rangers to pick campsites. That’s a non-starter and would have zero support from private and commercial groups.

The Main and MFS campsite models work great because boaters pick all of their own campsites. The Rangers simply act as mediators if conflicts surface. The Rangers do not assign campsites. Again, boaters pick campsites.
 
#34 ·
Correct me if I’m wrong, my boating experience is exclusively in the Northwest, but I don’t think there is a campsite system currently in place that requires rangers to pick campsites. That’s a non-starter and would have zero support from private and commercial groups.
On the Yampa and Gates of Lodore the rangers pick your camps. It seems a little wonky, but for our 6 day trip in June it worked out nicely. I was skeptical at first, but as mentioned before there was no passive aggressive camp claiming and it left you free to hike, take a leisurely lunch, etc and not worry that the group on your tail was going for the same camp as you.

I'm not saying this is the solution for the Rogue, but it would be nice if I knew at least were the commercial trips were planning on going since I know I am never going to get to camp before their runner. That being said, on my last trip down the Rogue we got almost every camp we planned on and I was friendly with all the commercial and private trip to find out where they were planning as well as let them know our plans. For the most part it all worked out.
 
#35 ·
Just got off the Rogue. What a wonderful river, and I would hate to see assigned camps there. It appears there are enough camps, but the trouble is the commercial use of Jackrabbits. The commercial outfitters send one boat ahead early in the morning, with a copy of the trip paperwork and a second shitter. This is the regulation that needs to be changed. It is NOT allowed in Grand Canyon, and ONLY benefits the large commercial groups on the Rogue. I would encourage everyone to write to the BLM Galice office and simply suggest the concept of sending a boat ahead to camp should not be allowed.

That e-mail should go to the Attention of Becky Brown, at
BLM_OR_MD_Rogue_River_mail@BLM.gov

All the best, Tom
 
#37 ·
The odd mileages you had in the Yampa were likely due to requesting the extra day. That takes you out of the normal flow. Every time I've taken the extra day option on either Dino trip you end up with a short day. A long last day on those trips is very normal due to where the camps are and a short day into Jones is generally preferred for the hiking there.
 
#39 ·
Never done the Rogue as the history of Blossom Bar makes the run largely unappealing to most of the people I boat with. That said, I have had wonderful experiences with both the Middle Fork and Main designated campsite system. It has saved us a lot of heartache and I think it takes pressure off potential user conflicts. However, I don't like the idea of Rangers designating camps as it sounds like it happens in Dinosaur.

If it goes that way its critical the agency studies the sites for of camps if that is how they choose to allocate, such as the Main. The trend I have seen on most rivers is for camps to get steadily larger and therefor benefit larger groups. Its a delicate balance but many of the best camps with popular hikes become huge and are therefor considered default for larger parties. I understand its a delicate balance as some rivers have limited camping locations but hate to see a system that inherently favors larger groups. I really thought the Main system managed to balance that issue well and many of the small camps designated for small groups were high quality. We boat in small groups most of the time and have lost access to several high quality camps with critical access to hikes on other rivers because larger groups felt entitled to them despite there being others camps available. Its just often assumed small groups should deal with the leftovers in some places. I think that is totally avoidable with a thoughtful system.

Best of luck, maybe one day I will get up there.

Phillip
 
#40 ·
Ahoy!
Good discussion with most misinformation already having been corrected.
I encourage everyone interested in these topics to participate in the annual (sometimes 2x annual) joint agency (BLM & FS) users meetings as I have the last few years;
Annual Rogue River Users Meeting Oregon/Washington BLM

Check out some of the past meeting notes and you'll see this topic and proposed solutions comes up perennially.
My trips have at times resorted to sending a rabbit, particularly when we are hoping to secure a prime spot like Mule Creek.
Though on recent trips I've found the tactic of camping closer to the target camp the night before (like at Long Gulch) works just as well.
Here's some of the positions I've submitted for the agencies to consider:
  • Remove the toilets from all river camps as these are typically the camps most targeted (though others suggested adding even more toilets).
    Every group is required to carry a shitter and there is a Scat machine at the takeout, no excuse to not use them on a Wild & Scenic River.
  • No sites should be designated commercial only (I once had a guide rabbit try to tell me I couldn't share Tacoma because it was their company's site)
  • Any reservation system should not offer preference to commercial groups over private groups in terms of sites available or opportunity for selection.
  • Any group size limitations for occupying a given camp should only be in place until mid-afternoon
    (I should be able to use Whiskey Creek with just a two boat trip if I arrive after say 3PM).

There are some regulations that slip through giving special considerations to the commercial groups- e.g. a commercial lodge trip can split to allow their guides to use a camp while the clients stay at the lodge whereas private groups are not allowed to split in this manner.

Read the history at the above link and participate in the 13 November meeting (6-8pm PST) to get your voice heard.
You know the commercial interests will be represented.
Ahoy!
Malloy
 
#41 ·
I've run the Rogue five or ssix times a year for the past ten years and I think they are doing pretty good with the way they manage it. The people at the Rand station are great and they help you out anyway they can. The campsites generally are void of trash, unlike most other public campsites.
I have had to pass on just as many designated campsites that private boaters occupied as commercial outfitters anytime. The outfitters go by the same rules as private boaters. We are both allowed to split our groups the first day on the river, as long as you both have a groover and a copy of the permit. After the first day its questionable, but only one private boater has been written up for this in fraction in the past twelve years.
If you really want to secure a camping spot, you rafters need to make friends with some kayakers. Sure the outfitters send out rabbits in the morning. They are loaded down and slow. We send out cheetahs, kayakers, after we see the rabbits go by. They are much faster and secure a campsite just the same.
Even if you don't get the site you want, it gives you a chance to check out other beautiful places.
It tends to be what you make it. I thought I should add, I am a private boater.
 
#42 ·
I've done 2 trips in May and 1 in September. I haven't had much of an issue with crowds, I think I'll dress a little warmer and head south During the school months :)
It would be fun to do a warm trip down there though.
 
#46 ·
Great discussion. Just got off the Rogue guiding a lodge to lodge trip and thus avoided the camp race vibe. This past week the ranger at Rand mentioned a good deal of tension occurring in the last few weeks regarding camps. They were encouraging all boaters to write their desired camps on the white board, but I witnessed several groups refuse. I did see a very high percentage of privates sending race boats. Ironically, none of them got the camp they were racing for due to groups laying over at these desirable camps. It was emphasized by these groups their displeasure in small groups laying over at desirable camps.
This brings up two points that I have not seen addressed in this discussion. First, I am curious as to why the white board only lists the camps for groups launching the day you are. This provides only part of the picture as everyone starts stacking up at Mule Creek and below. Secondly, how do you all feel about how layovers impact the camp search and what is an agreeable solution?
 
#47 ·
Another thing to keep in mind when it comes to group size and how busy the camps are. The BLM lets 100 individuals launch per day regardless of group size so on any given day you can have 5 groups of 20 or 20 groups of 5 launching you would imagine the camping situation would be a little tougher for the latter. The day we launched there were 16 private launches.If the trend is to not share camps then that means 16 groups are competing for the same camps within one day's float from the boat ramp.
 
#48 ·
Wouldn't work

There is a board at Rand where you can post where you plan to camp. It is on a first come first serve basis and on the honor system. It helps a little I guess, but a lot of people don't know about it. I don't think a camp reservation system would work for the Rogue. Too many small campsites and too many groups of people. It works on the MF because they limit the number of groups per day. On the Rogue, it is all about head count. You could have 15 groups launching on any given day and the small groups may then be forced to take a large campsite. I think the rangers need to stress the importance of sharing campsites, not hogging two campsites, and take the campsite that fits your group size. Also keep the hikers out of river campsites like Whiskey Creek and the Ranch.
 
#51 ·
There is a board at Rand where you can post where you plan to camp. It is on a first come first serve basis and on the honor system. It helps a little I guess, but a lot of people don't know about it.
Don't see how most people don't know about it when it's right there on the wall when they check in.
The problem I've had with it is twice now I've noted a commercial group claiming Whiskey on the board, then not taking it.
This makes it difficult to know if Doe / Wildcat are now more likely to be taken.
Also keep the hikers out of river campsites like Whiskey Creek and the Ranch.
I've had some good experiences with hikers on the Rogue and they usually are aware the riverside camps are for boaters.
In May we got to Upper Tacoma and there was a single tent pitced up on the hill.
Group consensus was the occupant was welcome to share our camp if he pleased.
 
#49 ·
The two prior posts are excellent and highlight the main issues.

As someone who loves a 1 boat Rogue float, it is interesting that such trips are seen as problematic. I'm pretty sure I've stayed at places no other group is ever aiming for, and I've had first-rate camps. Frankly, it is easier to do the Rogue this way as you are out of phase in terms of what is "desireable" in a camp, lessening competition. Such a mindset is anathema to river time.

The reality of crowded rivers rewards those who can look just a little outside the norm - lower flow, smaller camp, colder weather will always be a good trade if the goal is p&q on busy rivers.

I think the golden rule (as usual) is a good one. Don't layover with 1 boat in a destination camp on a busy river. But if I'm there in Oct in the rain, I just might do it.

Camp sharing is great for extroverts. Us introverts go to the river expressly to avoid such forced social interactions. There ain't nothing I hate more that sharing camps. Has nothing to do with how awesome your crew might be.
 
#50 ·
Yes the commercials routinely send rabbit boats down river while their main group meanders down. It's the worst I have seen on any river and I run most of the permitted rivers almost every year. Assigned camps has become necessary on the Rogue.







Sent from my iPad using Mountain Buzz
 
#52 ·
River karma

I've seen a backpack group of 3- 4 people hogging upper Whiskey for 4 days. I've seen a group of boy scouts, who were backpacking, camping at upper Mule Creek. I've seen a commercial group of twelve total people taking both upper camps at Whiskey. We rolled in late one day and they wouldn't share it. I've seen two people doing a layover day at that large camp with the shade tree at Tacoma. I once saw a group camped at that same site and they had one guy who pitched his tent on that spot over by the ledges camp through the berry bushes. He was pissed when I told him to move his tent to his campsite. I once pulled into lower Mule Creek and a couple, who had driven their car down to the Ranch, were there swimming in the nude. They asked us to not pull in for another half hour until they finished their swim. Crazy stuff. Bad river karma.

Most of the time, river people are some of the coolest and most sharing people on the planet. Thank God.
 
#53 ·
I once saw a group camped at that same site and they had one guy who pitched his tent on that spot over by the ledges camp through the berry bushes. He was pissed when I told him to move his tent to his campsite.
So you're one of those that refuses to share a campsite?:wink:

Bad river karma.
Yup.

Most of the time, river people are some of the coolest and most sharing people on the planet. Thank God.
Thank the river.
 
#54 ·
The Tuolumne has a pretty good system

The T has a pretty good system that is so basic and fair it is, sadly surprising. First half of the launches go to outfitters, half to privates. (And I think that is launches, up to a certain size, which make it easy for small, ie private parties, to snag unused spots.

Campsites are designated outfitter one year, private the next.

The effect is at least you can narrow down who you need to be talking to to get the site, greatly cutting down on surprises. I have had outfitters sheepishly approach me at the put in asking me if they could trade sites. Defiantly cut down on the "you're trespassing on my river" attitude and equalized things; without an entitlement we were just fellow boaters.

I'd also like an x number of people sized camp designations, (like MF) so if you are a small party and take it and another party comes and there is room, sharing is not just optional it is expected.

I have never understood the territorial ness with boaters, who are typically so sharing off river...
 
#56 ·
Camps on the Rogue can change with every high water flush, and the BLM/USFS already does a poor job of keeping track of which ones are viable and not each season. The people that are calling for this system to change need to realize that this question has been brought up many times in the decades since the gov't started managing the Rogue in the 70s, and the current system has survived because it works. The Rogue is managed in a way that is markedly different from other multiday river systems. The 120 people/per day limit for the wild and scenic section is a made up number that was the product of a meeting between the BLM and the early outfitters in the 70s. It's not at all based on any sort of scientific or ecological insight. Inevitably the river gets very crowded some weekends in July and August on the few days when the amount of users is actually at capacity. On the flip side, you can score a last second launch on Rogue far more easily than most other permitted rivers, and in general it's managed in a far more hands off way that makes getting on the river pretty easy.

The outfitters on the Rogue could and would aggressively lobby to keep a system like this out, and their opinion on such matters does carry a lot of weight. For that reason alone this is never going to happen.
 
#57 ·
All those points are week source at best and basically boil down to, “ because we’ve always done it that way”

Times chance and so should the management plan. There is no reason that everyone shouldn’t be able to enjoy the entire canyon without getting up at the asscrack of dawn and pushing for the next camp without feeling like you can explore the attractions, trails, side creeks or stop for lunch along the way.

It has become as much of a rat race,if not more, than everything else and takes away from the experience for everyone that does not have a paid rabbit boat.

All this being said, I don’t think it will change any time soon.
 
#58 ·
Times chance and so should the management plan. There is no reason that everyone shouldn’t be able to enjoy the entire canyon without getting up at the asscrack of dawn and pushing for the next camp without feeling like you can explore the attractions, trails, side creeks or stop for lunch along the way.
Unless you're on a tight schedule (three days or less), or you're in a large group of 15 or more I don't think the present system requires being on the water early and racing most of permit season, hence why the BLM has never seen a need to put resources into tightly managing the camps. There are plenty of camps on the Rogue most years, just not a lot of conveniently located/spaced ones that will sleep 20+ people, which is not a situation most groups will find themselves in.

There are a lot things about the way the Rogue is managed that probably ought to be changed. But I have also learned the longer I've stuck around that there are usually several reasons why most things work the way they do out here. The local BLM branch has a lot of costly problems it needs to manage in it's corridor on the Rogue before it can remotely begin to consider matters like this.
 
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