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Old 10-04-2013   #41
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Vanessa,

I think a couple of things are going on here.

As I mentioned in my off-list note to you, it appears your organization is involved in the river management "long game", which is fine. But the topic of these threads on the Buzz -- and the pressing issue of GC access for those who have current permits but who are being prevented from launching -- are much more immediate and imperative. True, your web site provides a copy of a contemporary letter of protest. But there is not much evidence of wider involvement -- such as pressing for a injunction/restraining order/lawsuit -- which you seem to imply would be a shoe-in to win.

Second, it does seem that you are being sort of opportunistic in raising awareness of your organization and trying to sell a product -- however worthwhile it might be -- when most folks here are interested in the above imperative.

Third, as a newly-minted poster here (having joined just yesterday) it's a bit hard to not think you're inserting yourself into this topic for reasons beyond those described in the original post.

Finally, educating folks on the history of river law can be useful. But as we all know from real world experience, the legal process is full of nuances, and often produces unexpected outcomes. It's a bit much to expect the rather intelligent folks here to accept the plain proposition that free access to all rivers is just one more lawsuit away. I know that's not exactly what you're saying, but it's sort of what you imply.

I hope I haven't conveyed a view that your organization is not worthwhile, or that you're trying to scam anyone. I don't believe that. But I do sort of think your timing was not the best, nor were your tactics. Far better if (either long before this issue arose, or after a decent interval) you had introduced yourself and your organization's goals, and opened a dialog with appropriate educational content.


Rich Phillips

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Old 10-04-2013   #42
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by NationalRivers View Post
It’s a nonprofit, educational organization..
NR, i'd like to verify your non-profit status...your DBA? Town/State?


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Old 10-04-2013   #43
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Sure, it's National Organization for Rivers. Colorado Springs, Colorado.

We have been around since 1978 (previously under the name National Organization for Rivers Sports, or NORS).
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Old 10-04-2013   #44
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 535

you don't show up on the IRS list of legit non-profit/charitable organizations and your standing in CO is "administratively dissolved" as of 2002.

care to explain or correct me?
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Old 10-04-2013   #45
gig harbor, Washington
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1
We have a permit for the 8th. I have been talking with my congressman and it doesn't look promising. The irony is that it has cost more to deny entrance to Lee's Ferry than it would otherwise cost just to allow the boaters to launch. I also understand that politically, this was a move by the white house to make this shutdown exceptionally painful for National Park goers. I will be at the barricades in 3 days. If you want to see some fun without paddles, come take a gander.
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Old 10-04-2013   #46
Tom Martin's Avatar
Flagstaff, Arizona
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 817

RRFW Riverwire - Lee’s Ferry Closure Update October 4, 2013

As the government shutdown of some federal agencies, including the National Park Service, drags into its 4th day, frustrated Grand Canyon river runners are camping in the parking lot at Marble Canyon Lodge, hoping for a breakthrough.

On Tuesday, October 1st, Park Service enforcement rangers erected a barricade across the road to the Lee’s Ferry access ramp where it meets Highway 89A. This is the only realistic access to the Colorado River at the start of a river trip through Grand Canyon.

Although river trips already on the Colorado River in Grand Canyon are allowed to finish their trips, none have been allowed to launch since the closure was implemented at noon, October 1, 2013. Those river trips already in the Canyon are not allowed to have people hike in and join the trip, unless that person is replacing a boat rower. Also barred from access at Lee’s Ferry are wade and float fishermen, sightseers and campers bound for the Lees Ferry Campground.

Marble Canyon Lodge is allowing river permittees and their trip members to camp in its parking lot, in anticipation of a resolution that would allow launching of river trips into Grand Canyon. Every day these self-guided groups do not launch, their chances of completing a Canyon run diminish. For safety, river runners need a minimum of thirteen to fifteen days to complete a river trip to the only open take-out at Diamond Creek, 226 miles downriver from Lee’s Ferry. During the month of October, river runners may take up to 21 days to cover this distance.

Grand Canyon river trips are so coveted, Grand Canyon National Park lets each person on the trip make the river journey only once a year, and some river runners have waited many years for the opportunity.

There have been several behind-the-scenes efforts to get the Park reopened for river runners and other recreationists. According to Grand Canyon National Park officials, many business leaders, including Bill Parks of Northwest River Supply, working with Representative Ann Kirkpatrick (D, AZ) and Governor Jan Brewer, offered to pay to have the river access opened, but were apparently told that sufficient funding would need to be provided to open all the National Park Service units across the country.

On October 3, 2013, Grand Canyon National Park Deputy Superintendent Diana Chalfant and other NPS staffers met with three permit holders at the barricade on October 3, 2013. According to one permit holder on the verge of tears, the Deputy Superintendent spoke “a lot of empty platitudes”, gave no indication when or even if the trips would be able to launch and did not say if the river runners would be reimbursed their $100 per person fees paid to the Park Service.

Uncertain of when the Federal Government shutdown will end, river runners have no choice but to terminate their trip or proceed to the road barricade and wait, spending many tens of thousands of dollars in the process, hoping access to the river will be restored.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
RIVERWIRE is a free service to the community of river lovers from River Runners for Wilderness. To join, send an e-mail address to riverwire@rrfw.org and we'll add it to the RRFW RIVERWIRE e-mail alerts list.

Join RRFW's listserver to stay abreast of and participate in the latest river issues. It's as easy as sending a blank e-mail to Rafting_Grand_Canyon-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

Check out RRFW's Rafting Grand Canyon Wiki for free information on Do-It-Yourself Grand Canyon rafting info http://www.rrfw.org/RaftingGrandCanyon/Main_Page

Check out new items and donate at the RRFW Store! RRFW is a non-profit project of Living Rivers. https://www.rrfw.org/store

Visit us on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/RRFW.org and https://www.facebook.com/groups/raftgc/
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Old 10-05-2013   #47
Scappoose, Confusion
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 12
GC Closure

I have a permit for GC launch next week- it looks bad at this point but what looks worse is the prospect that our outfitter is taking a stance that - you can take the food home with you if you want- they are talkin' refunding our shuttle costs and keeping the rest! All you other boaters that are living the Shattered Dream of a GC permit during the shit down please let us know how your outfitter is working with you to make this not just a rotten experience, but a very costly one as well. If mine burns my group for every dime they can I'll print their name in every bashing post I can find. I am hopeful that we can reschedule our launch for next year or 2015 like they allowed during the 2008 hi water event, if so I'll be taking my dollars to the outfitter that acts like a partner in crime, not a criminal. I thought all of us dirt bags watched out for each other- are these guys river runners or venture capitalists???

Keep the Zen- BrainO
Drugs and Alchohol- they aren't for everyone, but they've always been good for me- Hunter S Thompson
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Old 10-05-2013   #48
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at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,345
Really Brian? So the outfitters should eat the cost of your trip? With this kind of attitude I wouldn't doubt they'd tell you to take a hike. These are all small businesses and making it as one is challenging. Your group could split the fod and have none go to waste, how are the outfitters supposed to cut their losses? I know you are probably very upset, and that is completely understandable. But don't take it out on those that work so hard to support people that can't or won't outfit their own trip. Everyone associated with aborted trips is suffering.
I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
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Old 10-05-2013   #49
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Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 746
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NR, I will throw my hat in as a good candidate for a free book. You already have my email address. After a quick read through of the citations you provided in your earlier post, I would like to double check your legal work. Like the others, I am skeptical that the precedent for your arguments is so clear cut, but I'd love to be wrong, especially if it means extending the no-hike Big South season.
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Old 10-05-2013   #50
Scappoose, Confusion
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 12
I am and have been a small business for many years, I look at customers as partners in every venture. I have no problem meeting anyone half way- especially if it's nothing close to their fault (even if it was their fault, we're still partners and I'd be willing to share the pain- I know that the fault belongs far away on this one). But when you think about services rendered- I received a bunch of papers via email, sent in many thousands of dollars, wrote the menu, paid the deposits, organized the rental list, etc. So far the outfitter has organized a schedule and reserved gear, purchased the food and done the dry pack. No trucks have loaded and left, no gear used, no vans of people have been driven, no groover cleaning, no garbage service, etc. The food pack is a different discussion- it's been paid for and labor has been added to pack it- I think that deserves comp, but if it was me I'd write off the profit (35%?), offer to recycle the dry goods- there are certainly trips coming up and either charge for the balance or write it off on my taxes as a loss. If my trip loses 5 grand on this we'd live, feel like we worked it out and next float bring our business back to the same place- hell, they'd end up on the Christmas card list from now on. Do I really have that bad an attitude? I wish I could eat the whole thing- I'm the permit holder and my crew isn't exactly flush with cash. I'm upset, but I still realize that the human condition is far more important than money, ego or even the trip of a lifetime. Everything happens for a reason- it looks like another beautiful day- I hope everyone makes the most of it- BrainO

Drugs and Alchohol- they aren't for everyone, but they've always been good for me- Hunter S Thompson
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