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Old 10-04-2013   #31
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,929
It seems the link baiting assessment was correct. It can easily be viewed as malicious on the part of an organization to link to a contemporary problem to drive traffic to your own site for membership.

You might want to take lessons from several of the organizations that participate here who interact in a symbiotic way without the principle goal of driving traffic to their own websites and organizations. Especially when people we all know are experiencing loss of access and loss to business revenue over the current dilemma. You may have intentions that are nothing but consistent with my own but your interactions here just burned a bridge for me. I can't speak for others.

If nothing else you might reconsider your public relations approach and communications on forums.


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Old 10-04-2013   #32
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Explain how educating the public about their river rights that are currently being wrongfully denied is malicious?? On the contrary, it's a public benefit. The organization has lots of free information you can take advantage of and hand out.
Also, this is a not for profit organization here to defend YOUR river rights, to paddle and recreate on rivers everywhere in the US. It's not funded by anyone or anything else besides public support. And NO OTHER ORGANIZATION is focused on addressing river rights and river access by doing their homework and researching what the law says. That's why you haven't heard of this before. But it's your choice how to respond and if you want to support a cause that's for YOU and YOUR BENEFIT.
If the public doesn't know their rights, how can they possibly stand up for them??

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Old 10-04-2013   #33
Wadeinthewater's Avatar
Walterville, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1977
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 559
Just buy my book. It will answer all of your questions.

You may be a stand up guy and National Rivers may be a great organization, but you come across a little bit like this guy.
Real adventure is only one bad decision away.
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Old 10-04-2013   #34
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,929
I didn't say educating the public was malicious. I said the specific tactic of link baiting this forum to drive traffic to website is malicious. Plenty of great organizations have the principle goal of educating the public and represent stakeholders in successful manners. I support that. What I don't support is disguising what appears the principle goal of driving membership, even if it means access to information that could be helpful.

You stated to several of us to sideband you for access to information. One tried and was told they needed to either become a member or donate $35 to have the access. That is malicious. Timing your contributions to coincide with the current dilemma is a major variable in how I make such a statement. It comes across as you selling a book.

As my ending mentioned this may be simply due to how you are representing your ideas here. And trust me I understand first hand how important membership fees are to sustaining a non-profit. Been there and done that. But you couldn't have worse timing or approaches from my perspective right now.

It also the broad sweeping claims you make that throw up major red flags for. From the original title of the thread to the broad idea "of defending our rights" when you have admitted no desire to do so at a legal level (in response to litigation and representation).

And all of my training and experience puts the burden of proof on the person making the paradigm shifting claim, not us. You make rather large claims to sweeping illegality with in our management agencies that seems unrooted in all of the experiences and information I have ever seen. And others have expressed such skepticism. And telling me I need to buy a book to understand how I am wrong just seems plain inconsistent to the goal of any non-profit and stakeholder organization I have ever participated with or worked for.

So until I see some compelling evidence to the contrary this seems like a membership drive to me. And disguising a membership drive in the name of solidarity and altruism is malicious. Feel free to prove me wrong....but I ain't buying a membership to an organization that behaves this way. I expect more sophistication than that and maybe that standard is holding my legal rights back. I guess I may never know.

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Old 10-04-2013   #35
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by restrac2000 View Post
and maybe that standard is holding my legal rights back. I guess I may never know.
We hope you will allow yourself to take a second look so that you will know.

The subject of river law isn't short if you really want to know the whole story. If you don't want to know the whole story, checkout the free handouts that explain the basics. The book will answer questions more thoroughly. Again, if this could be found other places and answered briefly, there wouldn't be a need for a book to explain it! The organization has put decades of research into the book.

Wadeinthewater, Kevin Trudeau has not been part of a non-profit organization for 35 years, and he isn't trying to help the public understand their rights.

Again, we don't mean to come off as you have perceived, it's unfortunate for both parties. Yes, the Grand Canyon issue is a concern we want to address and help change, so we brought it up with people like you who love rivers and care about your rights to use them.

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Old 10-04-2013   #36
Ryanrugger's Avatar
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 248
I think this might be a great opportunity to give away a few of your books to educated people that can shed their opinions to the rest of the mountainbuzz community. If you believe in your product with as much passion you are trying to convene, then giving away 3 books to possibly gain 3-5 fold that many members would be a wise investment
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Old 10-04-2013   #37
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1975
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 535
Originally Posted by NationalRivers View Post
We will be looking into other alternatives in the future for those who want to read the book, but not join.

yeah, cuz it's really complicated to email someone a pdf or .doc file when it's an e-book, huh?
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Old 10-04-2013   #38
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Let's do some reverse engineering here. We want public rights to be recognized on thousands of miles of rivers that are currently either restricted or closed, so we can all recreate in non-destructive ways on rivers, which humans have been doing for thousands of years. There's lots of already established law that supports public rights on rivers. So, we don't need to litigate for new law, because law is already established. We need everyone to know what's been established, and have it be enforced. So, we go through dozens of court cases and lots of history that's long and sometimes hard for the average person to understand, and we compile it to tell a complete and simple story, so everyone can understand. Because it's a topic with lots of facts and explaining required, there's lots to the story, so a book is made. For those that who just want the very basics, there a free one-page handout is made. For those who want more, there's the book. Then, to have the actual law applied, people need to know, understand, and ask for it to be applied.
So that leads us to this point, educating the public and public rights on rivers.

Ryanrugger, you make an excellent and well received point. We are all for it. Who are a few folks that would be best?
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Old 10-04-2013   #39
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Where would you suggest funding to come from in order to apply what the book says so public rights on rivers can be recognized? And change can happen? Or answer questions on a topic with so much information to it? Or be a current and reachable voice for the public and river access issues? An active organization can't be sustained without funding. In order to stay away from having a conflict of interest, NOR is supported by the people it's working to help, the public.
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Old 10-04-2013   #40
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 43
Here's some more food for thought.
The NOR message about public rights is different from what other organizations typically say. Why should you trust NOR literature about kayaking, canoeing, fishing, rafting, fowling, and public rights on rivers, rather than what other organizations say?

1. Because you can verify it for yourself
The book Public Rights on Rivers lays out the development of river law from ancient times to the present, and the relevant statutes and court decisions are now on the internet for anyone to see, so you can see for yourself that Public Rights on Rivers is giving you the straight story.

2. Because there is no opposing book
There are other articles and arguments, but Public Rights on Rivers is the only book-length investigation into the history of river uses and the development of river law. Other websites, articles, and arguments typically summarize second-hand information, much of it written by people working to deny public rights on rivers.

3. Because it has withstood the test of time
For over a decade, NOR has been distributing its literature to lawyers and government agencies who deny or doubt public rights on rivers. If there were a valid rebuttal, they would have made it by now. When you compare their theories side by side with Public Rights on Rivers, you see that their theories don’t add up.

4. Because there is no conflict of interest involved
There is no commercial interest funding NOR. It’s a nonprofit, educational organization. It has no motive for misrepresenting the truth of the matter. If something about NOR literature isn’t accurate, it gets fixed. Meanwhile, other organizations do have conflicts of interest, even if they aren’t obvious (for example, board members who have conflicts of interest.)

5. Because lawyers typically get paid to litigate, not to say that a legal issue has already been settled by the U.S. Supreme Court
When a riverfront landowner pays a lawyer to sue a rafting company or a canoe outfitter, what the lawyer says about river law must be taken in that light: As paid, false advertising.

6. Because government agencies respond to politics, not law
Government agencies depend on current politicians for their funding. They say what current politicians want to hear. They don’t conduct an independent investigation into river law, then report their conclusions to the public. Only NOR does that.

The bottom line is your rights to navigate, fish, and walk along the banks of the rivers of America are too important to be given away for political reasons involving conflicts of interest. Read, understand, and support the NOR message. Defend your legal rights to enjoy America’s rivers now and for the future.

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