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Old 06-21-2016   #21
Rivertime, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 60
Originally Posted by ob1coby View Post
There are a lot more Guys in River Sports than women. It's just a fact, so when I see skilled women on the river it is noteworthy and awesome! As a single guy I'm actually hoping to appeal to one of these women someday and in the efforts of trying to talk to a few I've made a fool of myself more than once. That doesn't mean I'm sexist, and I fear that in your good intentions you've been more sensitive than was necessary. There's nothing new about guys making fools of themselves in front of women. You didn't mention what the comments were specifically which strengthens my opinion that you're being overly sensitive. In my opinion we have become much too sensitive and weaker as a society as a whole but maybe that's just my naivety since I myself am not sexist in the least. But most of the women I've seen on the river don't need you, me, or anyone else sticking up for them, but if they were truly sexist comments it was wrong of course. just my 2 cents.
I understand your point. Had you heard the comments that these assholes made you'd understand that this wasn't a misunderstanding or a case of over sensitivity. I agree that it's easy to be foolish when showing interest in someone. Using fowl and openly sexually suggestive comments to a woman on the river isn't funny or foolish, it's offensive and sexist.

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Old 06-21-2016   #22
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,928
I am lucky to boat with some phenomenal people and that includes several badass boatwomen. I have known plenty of women to boat solo in high and difficult water. We just got off the Yampa and I was the only man in a group of four and that included a woman boating solo in her Jagurandi.

Sadly that does not preclude sexism from existing within our community. It exists as men who refuse to ask women to help carrying group gear, light and heavy, which quickly becomes women passengers becoming "non-essentials". It exists in anecdotes like the OP mentioned. Its existence is evident with a quick search of the Buzz archives, though the place has become a little friendlier over the last few years. Its evident in this thread.

And for clarity, intent is often less relevant than affect when it comes to most -isms, including sexism. The best of men often make sexist comments without intent and women can reinforce sexist environments. Few of us go through life without participating in some manner or another.


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Old 06-21-2016   #23
UriahJones's Avatar
Salem, Oregon
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 59
Specifically what type of 'fowl' language are you referring to? Perhaps calling her a hot 'chick'? A sexy 'raven'? Silly 'goose'?

Just pulling your leg.

Bad language is not appreciated nor appropriate on or off the river.
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Old 06-21-2016   #24
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Fraser, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 1,038
Ya I started off boating and being trained by some pretty bad ass chicks. God, some of the shit they used to say would make a sweet and innocent 19 year old freeking BLUSH! Been lucky to boat with some pretty awesome folks, both men and women, nothing but respect.
"Like a bunch of monkey's, trying to fuck a football."
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Old 06-22-2016   #25
Meridian, Idaho
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 109
Originally Posted by bucketboater View Post
Every river chick I've met is more than capable of handling themselves these days. They don't need us posting for them. Sure they may have to deal with some dbag dudes now and then but it all evens out. My g.f. could snap her finger and a guy will carry her cat, a shuttle in seconds and get a cold beer at any takeout. That sure isn't happening to this guy.
Hard to state it much better. It sounds like someone bought a bunch of nice gear, filled his high dollar coolers with ice cold beer, hit the river with some capable female boaters, and somehow didnt realize he had inadvertantly baited in some ruddy hardshellers. For what its worth my wife thinks the original post is more sexist, in its inferance that women can handle a boat but not an obnoxious naysayer, than some salty language used by a few half drunk yahoos. There are many boatwomen out there that are far saltier than most men I know. Long live pirates and sailors, male or female!
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Old 06-22-2016   #26
Denver, Colorado
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 47
Originally Posted by soggy_tortillas View Post
I have honestly never been offended on the river by anyone, male or female. If someone cracked a "girl" joke I wouldn't be offended. Sometimes I play the "girl card" when I don't wanna carry someone's ridiculously heavy boat. That's fair; I'm a "girl."
However, I did recently call my brother a "sister" and a "pussy" because he won't go kayaking with me. I think I may have offended him.
Thank you. Seriously! Hah
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Old 06-22-2016   #27
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SeaTown, NW
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 97
its about knowing your audience. If you got a bunch of granola eating armpit hair wearing betty's slap a bernie sticker on your boat and start crochetting. If your upon a vagrant crew of female river gypsies that enjoy carnage, beer drinking, and crass jokes, then take it to level 10.
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Old 06-22-2016   #28
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022

Well when Schutzie ran with Rocky Mountain, we were the first company to recruit women and the first to run paddle boats. The training regimen that started in February and ran to May pretty much ran off the "sissies" of both sexes along about April when the river training started, usually in a snow storm.
Those who survived training had earned respect, and it didn't much matter if you squatted or pointed when you peed.
In short, the RMRE women were every bit as qualified and capable as any big hairy male, and they did not put up with much BS from the ignorant.

Chris Raffin comes to mind; she drove truck, drank beer, cooked meat, ran boats, cussed and got in a miscreant's face as well as anyone. And when she felt like it, cleaned up real nice I might add. RIP, Chris.

Schutzie didn't give it a lot of thought, this idea of women in a man's business, cause as I said, every individual who made it through training had respect. But he did manage to offend one woman on his first Grand Canyon trip; the rangers had checked everything out and in effect told us we needed to "Git", so we loaded up and "got".

As we were loading up, Schutzie called out "Load up the women and kids, lets giddyap while the gittin is good!"

This apparently offended one of the ladies on the trip with us, and she was overtly hostile the next couple of weeks.

Schutzie didn't mean anything by it, certainly had no intention of belittling anyone, much less a woman, but the deed was done and nothing he said or did made it ok.

So anyway, I can see both sides; the vision of some yokel commenting on Chris Raffins female status and qualifications is laughable; she'd simply and calmly cut their nuts off as she loaded her boat. But, the idea that one dare not make use of a line from an old western for fear of offending someone is equally laughable.
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Old 06-22-2016   #29
Jon Tucker Stavney
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Eagle, co, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 13
Just finished 12 days of raft guide training including swift water rescue and lots of swimming, flipping and wrapping for the experience with Sage Outfitters in Vail, and a few weeks into checkouts runs and first weeks of watching fellow guides get good and comfortable on some tough sections of River. Yes, it kicked my butt. I'm 48 in a mid life thing and hanging with lots of 20 somethings. We've done some beta runs before checkout on off hours and some of the toughest were clearly babes, not young dudes. One just swam all of Dowd Chute below Minturn to learn a bit more.... I can count more babes than dudes in the company, including some very new to white water that I would trust to guide my family down those runs. My progeny. Skill,and confidence is not a gender question. Leadership? That too.

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Old 06-22-2016   #30
Learch's Avatar
Dundee, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1989
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 655
I'm tall and fat, and lots of hard boaters didn't give me any respect when I was in an inflatable kayak. There are plenty of snotty assholes in the whitewater world, but I can give a shit less about them. I can stand up for myself when I need to, and I can let plenty roll off of my back.
The point is, it is much easier to control your reactions to people than control what they say. It's a universal truth in life. I understand lamenting the fact that there were some sexist assholes on the river, but they will always be there. I enjoy the hell out of boating with chicks that can hold their own, and I really enjoy watching them put people like that in their place.

Wishing I was on the river instead of surfing the web...
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