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Old 08-25-2016   #31
yesimapirate's Avatar
Denver-ish, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 739
Ok, I had my brother who's been in the insurance business for 15 years read thru this. Here's his response:

I would file with my insurance carrier and let them pursue subrogation against the shuttle service. I agree that normal "waivers " are crap and won't hold up when the insurance carrier for the damaged party sues the shuttle owners. It's like those f-ing signs on the back of gravel trucks that say they're not responsible for broken windshields. Just cause you have a sign doesn't mean you aren't responsible. Also note that the decision to sue the shuttle service is financial, so if the damages are a couple thousand the insurance might not go after the shuttle service because it doesn't make financial sense.

And I asked WTF is subrogation so he gave me a dumbed down definition.

Subrogation is when a company goes after the at-fault party and/or the at-fault party's insurance carrier. If your insurance company makes payment on damages that someone else caused your policy contract gives them the right to go after the people that caused the damages.


“HOLD THE DOOR!” — Hodor
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Old 08-25-2016   #32
yesimapirate's Avatar
Denver-ish, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 739
In Collins912's case, I'd definitely be pushing my insurance carrier to do subrogation.


“HOLD THE DOOR!” — Hodor
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Old 08-25-2016   #33
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
So, in accident investigations, the almost without exception rule is; in a rear end accident the driver in the rear is at fault. Always. Only a single exception, not applicable here.

Second, as a long time business type, carrying insurance is a mandatory part of being in business; no matter what waivers you get customers to sign, the courts will hold you accountable for negligence. Shuttle driving is not the kind of activity contemplated by the law in "We need your waiver of liability cause this is an inherently dangerous thing you are contemplating". Like whitewater rafting. Shuttle companies should not even be asking for a total waiver like this. Schutzie understands why they do, but they shouldn't.

Third, a cautious shuttle company would want to record the condition of each car they are hired to move, before they move it. A little video of a walk around of the vehicle, and a look inside would suffice if done properly, along with a fluids check before you move out. That way, there shouldn't be a dispute about any damage (no, the tree was not sticking out of the windshield when I left the car) as compared to (well, it sure was when we got there).

Finally, and most important, reputation is crucial in business. How you deal with the kind of adversity presented by "Hi, boss, I just rolled the customers Land Rover". defines your success as a business in the long run. If you won't deal with it properly rather than hide behind a bogus waiver, you deserve to suffer the consequence. That said, heck yes, why not a sticky thread on shuttle companies?

And Schutzie would be glad to tell the shuttle company hiding behind the waiver; fine; check out Mountain buzz; see what I have to say about you and your business. Of greater import, see what members have to say about you when I'm done.

Oh, and by the way? I need the name and particulars of your insurance company, and the name of your lawyer. You know, for the accident report. And the crime report. Be nice; no need to get in their face, but ask and document it with e Mail.
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Old 09-08-2016   #34
Custom Whitewater Equipme
Central Point, Oregon
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 88
I just herd Sharon is out of the game. as of 9/1/16. She has a message on her voice mail with more details.

May the water be under your boat and the wind at your back.
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