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Old 07-02-2014   #11
dark center, of the universe
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 20
So much speculation in this thread. Some jailhouse lawyering as well. Perhaps this should not be about blaming but trying to fix this as a system problem.

You also forgot about the three duckies that ran the dam on 6/23.

Regarding the use of "negligence": "Five elements are required to establish a prima facie case of negligence: the existence of a legal duty to exercise reasonable care; a failure to exercise reasonable care; cause in fact of physical harm by the negligent conduct; physical harm in the form of actual damages; and proximate cause, a showing that the harm is within the scope of liability."

Is running over a river hazard in the dark negligent? Does your buddy have a Legal DUTY to do anything here? Also, until the details of this are released to the public there may be more to the story.

Keep the Arkansas Wild and Free !
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Old 07-02-2014   #12
Montrose, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Jun 2013
Posts: 274
Once again I think we are missing the point here. All I am saying is the accident happened because it was to dark to see the warning sign, and the oarsman of the raft totally missed the boat shoot, which caused the boat to flip in an hydraulic in a low-head dam and someone drowned cause of this negligence. That's why I,m just saying there needs to be a good investigation on this matter. Article is the the boater safety forum under June 28th Accident on the Ark. If and only if, this captain knew where the damn was and still fucked-up, he needs to be accountable. Kinda like missing the take-out on a Class III river, to only go over a 20' waterfall and saying, "I'm sorry", No, I don't think that's going to cut it!!!

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Old 07-02-2014   #13
salida, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 283
Originally Posted by Salidaboater View Post
IMHO it was total negligence the leader of the trip put in at fisherman's bridge and was heading to Salida at 4:30 in the afternoon. That is stupid to begin with.

Once it became dark he should of eddied out and went to a plan B but heading through that rocky braided stretch with a dam a head of you is total negligence. Especially when you are 60 and experienced and the rest of the group is 20 and don't know the river.

Do you know if the leader wanted to call of the trip but was persuaded against his better judgement. Do you know that the other members weren't fimiliar with the river? Do you know who was captain at the moment going over the dam? If you know more than the rest of us please tell otherwise your "IMHO" is really based on imagination, right? Glad your "IMHO" isn't law.
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Old 07-02-2014   #14
behind your mom, Colorado
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 678
Originally Posted by psu96 View Post
Do you know if the leader wanted to call of the trip but was persuaded against his better judgement. Do you know that the other members weren't fimiliar with the river? Do you know who was captain at the moment going over the dam? If you know more than the rest of us please tell otherwise your "IMHO" is really based on imagination, right? Glad your "IMHO" isn't law.
+1 some ridiculous beliefs in here...
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Old 07-02-2014   #15
Denver, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 106
Originally Posted by gunnerman View Post
.... If this man knew this danger exsisted and still ran this at night then charges need to be filed. ...
Charges? Charges put people in prison. Are you comparing this to getting behind the wheel of a motor vehicle while drunk? Then again, if alcohol was involved, suddenly it's a much better comparison.
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Old 07-02-2014   #16
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 244
natural selection at is finest.

people here were not children. adults can make their own decisions. if you were not there, you do NOT know the facts.
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Old 07-02-2014   #17
Somewhere in, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 65
Before this thread turns into a distorted argument about "law". I wanted to share a story.

I'll be brief.

17 years old. My girlfriend, sister and her boyfriend were wanting an adventure. My sis and her boyfriend decided they wanted to go rafting. We launched a 8' Sevylor onto class 2plus water. We had no clue what we were doing or where we Were going. We all were wearing pfds but We were the definition of fucking stupid. We make it about half way down and this guy in a 'nice boat' rolls by us. He just politely asks us how were doing, if we have been on that stretch of water before, ect. We told him the truth, but were too dumb to ask for help. He offered to let us follow him through the class 3 at the bottom of the run. We made it through thanks to that guy.

I have been hooked on boating since that day.
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Old 07-02-2014   #18
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Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 690
Armchair quarterbacking at its finest. Point your fingers. Lay the blame.

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Old 07-02-2014   #19
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Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 884
Im not saying that boating at night is the best idea. Also not saying that it is just plain stupid. Is there an escalated risk, sure. Is it unreasonable and negligent for experienced people to boat sections of river that they know well or are well within the realm of their skill level at night. I dont think so. I routinely run the upper/ lower section of cataract at night, ruby horse thief at night, browns at night, salida to rincon at night, finished tons of trips after dark, have been the spotlighter for some great surf sessions on little d in westy at night, on and on . All have gone well, every bit as good as my daytime runs. You have to be more aware and alert at night for sure but to say that it is just plain stupid in all accounts is a knee jerk ignorant statement at best. Just because you arent comfortable boating at night doesnt mean that it cant be done as safely as any other boating under the right conditions and controls. This is a risky sport, period. If you or anyone else is uncomfortable with it, dont do it! I hate to see how you guys vote.

Tossing out this blame at the drop of a hat with half the story at best is ridiculous. Could he be negligent, sure. IMHO, if he was boating wasted, should he be? no. Who knows what happened that night. If you were there, lets have the full story. You guys talk about "IMHO" but what you are saying doesnt seem humble at all.
zach baird
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Old 07-03-2014   #20
East of the Pine beatle, Colorado
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,363
I have run that stretch if the Ark at night- it's pretty easy. I cannot fathom how anyone could miss that boat chute and go over the dam. It's slow water, obvious channel and signs.....this is a curious one for sure.

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