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Old 09-28-2015   #41
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 95
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 68
Originally Posted by SpeyCatr View Post
The thing I am having a hard time understanding is where is this guides professionalism? Imagine you're on a trip with this guide and he pulls up at the take out and starts yelling/berating people in front of you for something like this? I, as a client, would be embarrassed and would never go with that company again!
Hear, hear. That's what I was thinking. Yelling and berating ruins the experience for everyone, including the clients. The owner ought to be aware of this because this would only reduce the likelihood of repeat business.

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Old 09-28-2015   #42
seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 90
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
Living in a major city has me immune to this drama. I get the finger on a weekly basis on my morning commute. I give zero fucks. If you deal with a dbag on the ramp you should never let them influence your trip. If someone gets pushy on the ramp I tell them they can help me out out dragging my boat/gear or kindly fuck off. Conversely I always help out others at the put in/ take out as well. Be helpful,be kind and never let one prick amongst thousands of good boaters ruin your trip.

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Old 09-28-2015   #43
Nye, Montana
Paddling Since: 2012
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 233
I ran bear trap canyon earlier this month. We (1 private oar boat) tied off just upriver of the boat ramp, then went to get shuttle rig. We get back and the fishing guides told me that I should tie off below the ramp...I apologized and now understand why.

Then I go to my truck and trailer to back it down and he has the entire ramp taken up. Its easily a 2 trailer ramp. That started to annoy me a bit. Then he spends an hour taking his frame apart and putting it on top of the van while his customers sat in the van. What the hell?

Also these "gear boats on the lower rogue are absolute sleeze balls. I recommend permit camping for the popular places. These guys send one boat to take up 5 acre camp sites? Seriously...

It was mid may of this last summer and this loaded 18 footer (the unlucky dude that goes down river early am to mark there territory) comes by asking where we were camping (he was wanting to know if he was going to have to race me to his next camp site lol). I said where ever he wasn't because there were just 2 of us on one raft. Had I known how they act (my first lower run) I would have smoked him down river and taken there camp site.
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Old 09-28-2015   #44
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
Jeeze. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Most of us go to the river to be inspired and get in touch with our better selves. You get out what you put in, always. The rio teaches us humility. Not hearing enough of that in this thread.
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Old 09-29-2015   #45
yesimapirate's Avatar
Denver-ish, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 741
This year over previous years seems to be all about taking up sides. Commercialers are jerks, and Privaters are lazy slobs - Round 12. It's like the political arena on the water, and I fucking hate politics.

Practice humility and have a sense of awareness. As a human being(working or vaca-ing) it's really OK to open your mouth and ask questions. I'm all out of beer, but I can offer a shot of good rum if you help give us a hand? Can we slide your stuff over to squeeze in? Can you give us a couple minutes? Can we get in line behind you? Can we help you? All questions that if heard out loud might trigger those not paying attention to join in.

Pay it forward. You'll be amazed how good you feel.

On top of all that, is the golden rule.

For those who seem like minded - Phil, adgeiser, cataraftgirl(now raftgirl), rafterbrooks, and cschmidt. Kudos, you seem to get it.

JPG87, you started another thread about whether to take the wife, and I believe decided to take her. Hopefully that went well, yes???

“HOLD THE DOOR!” — Hodor
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Old 09-29-2015   #46
Montrose, Colorado
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 128
Cisco takeout is a bit tough. The foliage on the shore makes it a bit difficult to just tie off on the water, help others or just wait things out. There is an eddy a ways up stream that is nice to hang out in, but unless the boats are sticking out from the ramp you may not be able to see them.

How fast you get on or off is personal. Plan your best and do your best. When I haul gear on a trailer, loading and unloading are wicked fast. When I have to de-rig, deflate, and roll it is going to take me a lot longer - especially to do it right. When I have to deflate at Cisco, I try to get onto one of the sides so I take up less space. The downstream side by the recycle bin is my preferred so I can just line up off the concrete. I try to get everything off the water so it can start drying quickly. This also allows for other boats to come in behind me if needed, although they won't be able to back up to it until I get my gear out of the way (sorry).
When I have other boats with me, if they are loading up with me, I try to have them next to me (if available) to start with, or behind me so that we can quickly take the side of the ramp to get our stuff together. Everyone in the group keeps pushing and stays busy until the truck(s) can pull away.

If you come in and yell at me in any non-productive way during this process I will ignore you.
If you need help with anything and I notice, I will offer to help. If you ask, I will help. Take-outs like Cisco can be stressful, but a little patience and lot of work can go a long way toward alleviating that stress.
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Old 09-29-2015   #47
Rifle, Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 50
Originally Posted by yesimapirate View Post
JPG87, you started another thread about whether to take the wife, and I believe decided to take her. Hopefully that went well, yes???
The trip went great! I had good clean runs through skull and SITM. Actually the only rapid that caused me any trouble was Big Hummer, and that's because I wasn't paying attention and was ejected to the back of my boat. Most of the run was an adrenaline blur, but man was it a blast. I can't wait to run it again, it was a wild ride in my 12 foot boat. Once I get the editing done I will post the standard, shaky gopro video of us running the canyon.
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Old 09-29-2015   #48
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,933
Originally Posted by Phil U. View Post
Jeeze. Bad behavior does not justify bad behavior. Most of us go to the river to be inspired and get in touch with our better selves. You get out what you put in, always. The rio teaches us humility. Not hearing enough of that in this thread.
I support that approach. More and more I am trying to default to assuming people are doing their best. Its an effort sometimes but it seems to lead to better outcomes for everyone.

The only boat ramp problem I had was at Cisco at while the person behind us was acting entitled and aggressive I made the mistake of making the situation worse.

A little bit of conversation can a long ways.

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Old 09-29-2015   #49
Durango, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 390
I was there Saturday as well. The guide was being a douche. A few private boaters were being douches.

Lesson of the day: don't be a douche.

That being said, that was one of the most unprofessional commercial encounters I've had. It was a definite cluster fuck at the ramp that afternoon, but the Canyon Voyages guide rolling up with his dick wagging and ego on fire, yelling at people and ramming private boats out of the way with his motor rig did not help the situation.
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Old 09-29-2015   #50
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 43
Originally Posted by restrac2000 View Post
I support that approach. More and more I am trying to default to assuming people are doing their best. Its an effort sometimes but it seems to lead to better outcomes for everyone.

Exactly. Unless folks are truly just lounging with a beer in the middle of the ramp, assume they are doing their best to get going. They may not be as fast as you are, and that's ok. They may be less experienced, not as strong, more tired from their run, have more stuff, need to roll, etc. but that doesn't mean they have any less right to be there. Offer to help, and you will receive help in return. As someone else said, ask for what you want, rather than demanding it. If you feel like someone's stuff is strewn about and should be pushed to the side, ask if you can help do that. It will get stuff out of the way and make the point clear without being confrontational or bringing down anyone's buzz from the rio. You might make a new friend instead of a new enemy.

As for me, I go by the old saying that smooth is fast. When I pull up, I work with a sense of urgency, but I'm not gonna let someone else's unrealistic expectations make me go so fast that I'm losing or damaging gear, or that I'm so stressed to move that I'm not having fun anymore, barking at my boatmates, etc. I also try to stay as far off to the side as possible and quickly move my gear off the ramp. I'm prepared with a plan in place and I work hard to execute it until I'm ready to go. I don't celebrate the trip until it's truly over when everything's loaded up.

Commercials vs privates: No one has the right of way and anyone who says otherwise is either outright lying or has been badly misinformed. That being said, I always try to defer to commercials when it's realistic to do so. They are on more of a time crunch, and realistically they will likely be faster than I am. They are working, I am not, so it makes sense to me to do what I can to make their job easier instead of harder. However, the expectations have to be reasonable. If I know there are commercials coming up on me before a rapid, I let them pass. But I'm not gonna eddy out every 2 minutes on the Ark to let another commercial train pass by. If I'm near a commercial within a half mile or so of the takeout, I'll slow down a bit and make sure they get there first. But I'm not gonna scramble and get worked up if they pull in behind me and I'm already half way done. I'm gonna keep my head down, work hard, and get moving in a reasonable amount of time.

It's all about having reasonable expectations and giving people the benefit of the doubt. Sorry for the long post, but it's been frustrating to read some of the back and forth over these issues this summer. As someone else said, a little humility and remembering why we're on the water in the first place can go a long way for everyone's attitude. Whether you're a salty dog 30 year guide or its your first trip, everyone has equal right to enjoy the river and should give equal respect to others doing the same.

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