Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-28-2015   #31
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 728
To start with, I have encountered plenty of Westwater guides that have way less experience than I. The argument that pro guides have more experience than everyone else goes nowhere. Many do, but I'd wager most don't.

Those with more experience than everyone else, whether private or commercial, should be able to understand by now there will be other trips slowing them down at the Cisco ramp and act accordingly. No commercial company or private boater has a "right of way" on those ramps, as soon as someone claims that right, they have lost credibility.

I am always willing to work with someone who is respectful, and not so much when that someone is a douchebag. Doesn't matter if it is a private or commercial trip, you should always conduct yourself like there are other people involved. Act like an asshole and get treated like one. Be respectful and get treated with respect. Not really that difficult.

DoStep is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #32
Rifle, Colorado
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 49
Sigh. I had a feeling this post might be a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Emmielou View Post
Look, it's easy to Monday Morning Quarter Back. The guide you are not-so-cryptically referring to is a long-time boatman with hundreds of WW trips under his belt (and is totally not an A$$hole). Having been on both the private and commercial side of the Cisco scene, the reality is what you might consider efficient at the end of your vacation is different from the efficiency needed to get your people home so you can clock out. They have to come back and do it all again tomorrow. Celebrating is fine, but leave a lane.

And he's right...if you guys were taking your time the ranger would have said to move your stuff to the side, let these guys back their trailer and be gone. I can't speak to or defend his tone, but it sounds like you gave him a lot of reason to be frustrated.

The ramp is the place to show up, pack up, and get out. Truly, congrats on a great first run, but the commercial guide who shows up behind you doesn't care that you successfully stayed black side down. He is focused on getting his people home and off the bus, because he doesn't get to celebrate his runs or "cool vibe" until he has shook their hand and walked away.

There's been a lot of dirt about commercial boaters on these forums this year, but the reality is these people have far more experience than almost any private boater on almost any stretch. Just because they are in business mode and not party mode doesn't mean they are a**holes. They are doing their job. From the sounds of it, the ramp was busy and unorganized. Canyon Voyages has some of the most competent and professional guides running that stretch. Give them the benefit of the doubt and save the party for later.
Look, there's not really a reason to belittle me and go on a personal attack. I realize now that my posts may lead to the belief that I was directly involved in a confrontation with the guide. I had no contact with him. I was on the ramp, unrigging my gear as quickly as possible, but not near this guy. What I saw is a guy roll up on a full ramp of people working to get their gear out of the way. The first words I heard spoken was "commercial boat coming through" out of the guide's voice. When people didn't immediately move, he began to berate and harass boaters to move. My original question, and whole point of posting this was, does anyone have the right of way, and is there some sort of unwritten rule about letting guides through? I was asking a question about a situation to educate myself as a new boater.

As far as the guide, from my perspective, he was rude and unprofessional, no question about it. He may have to deal with the same problems rafting that canyon every day, but that doesn't give him the right to push others around.

So can anyone tell me? Is it proper etiquette to give commercial trips the right of way?

JPG87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #33
wildh2onriver's Avatar
irvine, California
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,197
put-in/take-out etiquette

I've run westwater a couple of times, ok, maybe well over 100 times. I've never seen this type of behavior from a commercial group there. I've seen this a few times from privates, but only a few.

All that, I totally believe the op. Only because I've seen this bs at two or three other takeouts. Yep, I've backed my f-350 and trailer down and made these d-bags ramp hogs scream and shout...and move their ramp filling crap out of the way, but only after politely asking them to allow me room to load my boat (5 minutes tops), and they sneered and jeered...btw, more privates are guilty of being complete jackasses than commercials. The commercials have been the bigger dicks though.

It's always fun to see aholes move their stuff very quickly as they hear the trailer wheels rolling towards their coolers and boats, somehow knowing that I'm serious, and that clogging 4 lanes with one group is wrong.

I'm always friendly, but please clear out a lane because my brakes are suspect.

Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz
wildh2onriver is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #34
Eagle, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 40
I've also experienced this strange phenomenon of guides thinking that they somehow own the ramp or the river. My last trip down WW was very similar where a pile of commercial boats rolled up to a full ramp and somehow thought that everyone should make way. Guy was a total shmuck and pulled the same bs, saying he needed to get his boats out before everyone else. Needless to say he didn't get his way and had to wait for a spot. I've also had to wait 45 minutes for these "efficient" and "expert" guided to de-rig and stack 5 boats on one trailer, before I could bring my trailer down to load my boat that takes barely 10 minutes. So the short answer is, nobody owns the ramp or the river and commercial trips don't have the right away. If a guide tells you any different tell them to suck it. Not saying all guides are pricks but most are just worried about their tip and could care less about anyone else on the ramp. Share the ramp, show respect, and it will make everyone's trip a better experience.
whiskey_river is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #35
LongmontRafter's Avatar
Longmont, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 168
"So can anyone tell me? Is it proper etiquette to give commercial trips the right of way?"

I think that as someone else said...we all use the ramp and have to get along...

My minor takeout story happened last weekend taking out at the Catamount ramp on the upper C. No biggee but I had my stuff to the side, ready to load on my truck and another group proceeded to block the ramp with stuff. I made a remark to one of the guys about blocking the ramp. He didn't really say much but another in his group came over and offered to help me load my frame on my roof...I kinda felt like a douche at that point cuz we were both frantically trying to get our stuff out of the ramp area. We didn't have the luxury of trailers like most...My problem was that I was flying solo and had to load everything apologize for getting testy with you and thanks for helping out a fellow boater!

ManGearPig Lives!
LongmontRafter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #36
Plunk your magic twanger!
Gremlin's Avatar
New Castle, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,105
I had the exact same experience at Westwater this year as the OP. The guide told my wife to move our stuff off the ramp as I was getting the truck. We had waited for 40 minutes for a lane to open up and had only been on it for 5 minutes (and off it five minutes later) when he pulled up and began demanding a lane. Other private boaters were patiently waiting their turn behind us. My wife told him to find some sand and pound it. BTW, last year we let that outfit use our jack, which they forgot, to change a flat tire on their trailer while we patiently waited.

Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz
Gremlin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #37
Emmielou's Avatar
Moab, Utah
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 106
JPG87, if I came across as heavy on the offense, then I apologize. To answer your question, no trip has more of a right away over another. However, if you are keeping others from taking out by not having your stuff together, you will be asked to move. One of the other posters had it right in saying move your stuff off the ramp to deflate, de-strap, de-rig, or have a beer until you are ready to drive your car in, throw your boat, and get out.

The Cisco ramp gets a LOT of private traffic, and not as much heavy commercial traffic, so it's pretty prone to getting clogged up with privates, who tend to be in vacation mode. Plus, trips tend to hit the ramp when no one is around and take over the ramp (intentionally or not) and then get surprised when another trip pulls up behind them and can't take out. So just be aware and be cool.

Who knows the full story, sounds like things were cool with one of the privates who helped them out, I don't know which trip you were on, doesn't matter. Let bygones be bygones, drink lots of water, and congrats on nailing your first run
“May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds.”-Ed Abbey
Emmielou is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #38
Grand Junction, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2012
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 102
Personally (as a guide and a private boater) whenever I hit a ramp that is full I do whatever I can to help the other groups move off the ramp faster

It really seems like the only productive way to go about it.

Coming from a guide - commercials absolutely do not have any right of way nor any special privileges whatsoever.
cschmidt1023 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #39
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
The river is Church, even for rafters. If you aren't on your very best behavior, even in difficult circumstances, then you are part of whatever problem you perceive.
Phil U. is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2015   #40
SpeyCatr's Avatar
Coquitlam, BC, Canada
Paddling Since: 2013
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 267
The thing I am having a hard time understanding is where is this guides professionalism? Imagine you're on a trip with this guide and he pulls up at the take out and starts yelling/berating people in front of you for something like this? I, as a client, would be embarrassed and would never go with that company again! The guys I know who are guides would park the boat, explain the situation to the passengers and that they were going to go see if they could speed things up by talking to the other boaters (in a professional, calm, tone!), and go have a quiet chat with the other boaters on the ramp or who would be waiting with the ramp to see if there was a way to speed things up or jump the queue. I don't think anyone would have a problem with at least being asked about this?

As a private boater, I am all for encouraging people to get into rafting. If someone decides to go commercial trip, maybe they have a good experience and decide they want to get into it privately down the road? Yelling/screaming like a bunch of yahoos at the boat ramp only does harm to the boating community and the impression of rafting and rafters to whose who paid for their trip and maybe dissuades them or leaves a negative impression of the people who partake in the sport?

Future owner of AIRE Wave Destroyer w/MadCatr Frame
SpeyCatr is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Shoshone Put-in Bathroom etiquette smurf Boaters Forum | General Boating Topics 1 07-19-2014 07:45 PM
Bathroom etiquette at the NF of SP put-in marko Whitewater Kayaking 7 07-30-2010 09:45 PM
Dotsero take out put in location nicho Whitewater Kayaking 4 07-21-2010 05:35 PM
Taos Box put in and take out? Tonan Kayaking | Trip Planner 3 07-12-2008 08:08 AM
Take out/Put In Etiquette at Busy Places? bkp77 Whitewater Kayaking 2 06-23-2004 12:59 PM

» Classified Ads
16' Jack's Daddy Cat

posted by Gooseman

16' Jacks Plastic Welding Daddy Cat raft. Custom aluminum...

10' Cataract Oars

posted by rockinRio

10' Cataract Oars, rope wrapped, and two counter balances....

14' AIRE Wave Destroyer...

posted by River Capt D

AIRE 14' x 22" dia. Wave Destroyer cat tubes, purchased...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 11:14 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.