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Old 08-06-2015   #81
Total newbie
Arvada, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 53
Originally Posted by soggy_tortillas View Post
In my opinion, your opinion is really not all that humble. Perhaps you should leave the "H" out of it.
I'd also like to note that as none of us were actually there to witness said account, we have no right to make pompous accusations as to whether the OP was out of line in the way he approached the situation.
Agree, it's mostly people projecting how they would have acted with the guide so the OP must have acted the same. Very telling actually... how aggressive some posts have been considering... they weren't there...


I picture the OP with a grin saying somewhat of a jab but certainly, with appropriate respect.

What's with all the "no respect" posts anyway? Is this a Harley board?

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Old 08-06-2015   #82
jonny water's Avatar
Geologist, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 583
Originally Posted by Spaceghost View Post
I keep getting this stuff about how lame it was to say "Hey, where's your helmet?" in front of his guests.

Was it a secret? Did the guests think he had a magic helmet only other guides could see?

Instead of getting huffy with me at the take out, the guy should have backed his PERSONAL decision.
How huffy was he? Did he make you squeal like a pig too?

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Old 08-07-2015   #83
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 200
Originally Posted by Spaceghost View Post
Well said. Spoken like someone who has had a real job in their life.

A lot of guides are 20 yr old spoiled college kids who have never worked an honest day in their life. If they had, they would understand that bringing your tools to work, safety equipment included, is mandatory, and shows respect for your co-workers.

I would also like to reiterate, all I said was " hey, where's your helmet?", and that my issue was with his huffy behavior at the take out.

Are you done preaching yet!? It's like a hard hat do you wear it all day everyday?!
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Old 08-07-2015   #84
G-Money's Avatar
The 80525, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 16
I personally like what Spaceghost has policed. I vote we get him a Mountainbuzz badge so everyone on the river can recognize his authority and he can keep things running smoothly and safe. He can report back to us whenever those scofflaw commercial rafting companies are running with semi-inflated rafts, untied bow lines, non-existent foot cups and so forth. Very useful stuff. I'm glad someone cares as much as he does.
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Old 08-07-2015   #85
jbolson's Avatar
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 139
Ego wars

It was wrong for the OP to confront the guide in front of his customers

It was wrong for the guide to escalate the confrontation

What I see in this and many threads is you pick a side, and argue your point but two wrongs don't make a right
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Old 08-07-2015   #86
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Originally Posted by jbolson View Post
Ego wars

It was wrong for the OP to confront the guide in front of his customers

It was wrong for the guide to escalate the confrontation

What I see in this and many threads is you pick a side, and argue your point but two wrongs don't make a right
Bingo. And it's all been a pissing match since.
Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 08-07-2015   #87
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
The old rat will toss in a couple of stories;

We were on the Arkansas and one of our boats flipped; while we were busy getting people and gear and boat recovered a driver for another company stopped by. She proceeded to yap (in front of our passengers) about how unsafe we were, and how we were always hurting people on our trips (a lie; in 8 years no river injuries, no safety issues). When I was sure everyone was OK and we were in good shape I confronted this bitch, explaining that a) if you want to get involved the first thing is to make sure everyone is safe, not start yapping unrequested opinions b) If you must yap, make sure you have your facts straight c) If you must start yapping consider the consequences; mainly that while we'd still assist them if needed on the river, otherwise we wouldn't piss on them if they were on fire.

Two days later the bitch was on the side of the road with a flat tire, and apparently her training didn't include how to change a tire. We did stop, and discovered that she not only didn't know how to change a tire, she didn't have a spare or a jack. We left her sitting on the side of the road.

Second story;
In 8 years on the river we never had or wore helmets; this was the 70's, no one wore or would have considered wearing helmets. We had swimmers and such on many trips, not a single injury, much less a head injury; the only head injury we ever had was when a couple of passengers went for a climb and one putz thought it would be fun to toss rocks down the hill, on top of the other one. 4 stitches, an emergency room visit, couple of beers, all was good.

The reality is, as the industry has gotten more mature things like helmets, better life jackets, and swift water rescue training has made it more safe.

But it has also brought out the self appointed busy body enforcers. Space, in my opinion your confrontation might have been a good thing, assuming you were only trying to avoid an injury. If you let your ego get in the way you should have walked away. How you went about it was not good; I mean, what did you expect, they were gonna thank you for being a busy body?

You may not give a shit how you were perceived, but be hopeful you don't have any "flat tires"
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Old 08-07-2015   #88
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
One other comment;

I used to wander all over the town where I grew up. Alone. Even as young as 6 yrs old it was fine with everyone if I walked to the park, or over to the creek to find bugs and frogs and stuff.

No problem.

I recently saw a story about a couple in Connecticut that are in a battle with the state because they see no issue with their 9 and 11 year old kids going together 6 blocks to the park. Turns out the state has a law, says no kid under 13 can be "unaccompanied".

the parents wonder what the fuss is.
The state is aghast and foaming at the mouth that parents can be so irresponsible.

Me, I stand with the parents. It may be folly for them to let their kids wander aimlessly around the neighborhood, but at the same time the state need not be sticking it's nose into this kind of stuff.

It may be folly for a commercial outfit to allow guides to run without helmets. But it isn't anyone's business but the companies, the guides, and maybe the passengers.

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