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Improving 4-Rivers and Dinosaur Permit Systems

23K views 143 replies 37 participants last post by  cowboy907 
#1 ·
It finally dawned on me that many of my recent concerns about rec.gov are actually rooted in the permit system itself. As demand for permits continues to skyrocket for Gates of Lodore and Yampa and MF Salmon and Selway, it’s getting to the point where the old way of doing things no longer works very well and that’s when people start looking for ways to beat the system.

As private boaters, I think it’s in our best interest to get out ahead of this problem so that we don’t get screwed in the short term by people cheating the system or in the long term, when the permit system finally changes to adapt to the new, higher level of demand.

I strongly believe that everybody wins when the permit system is fair and transparent. I also think that a fair and transparent permit system acts to thwart attempts to beat the system from the outside (for example, by using software programs to game the reservation system) or from the inside (by rec.gov employees doling out permits to family & friends or selling them to the highest bidder.)

Here are my proposed ideas for changing the permit system for 4Rivers and Dinosaur NM:

1) The initial lotteries for high-season permits seem to be working okay. However, requested dates on a lottery application should be changeable before the lottery is run. (This year, rec.gov prevented any changes to your lottery application dates after the application was submitted. They claimed that changing requested dates on a lottery application, prior to the lottery being run, was “against Agency rules.” Of course, that is not true.)

a) The high season for Gates of Lodore needs to be extended until the end of October. Since the Green is dam-controlled, Gates of Lodore remains a great run when the Yampa and MF Salmon and Selway have dropped out. This creates higher demand on Gates of Lodore late in the season. By extending the high season, it means there will be 2 launches per day instead of 1. As part of the high-season, these dates would be part of the high-season lottery.)​

2) Once the high season lotteries have been run, permits that went unclaimed (i.e., non-confirmation cancellations) were released all at once on rec.gov at a specified date and time. This process does not work well when there are hundreds or thousands of people vying for a handful of available dates. Instead, there should be follow up lotteries for non-confirmation permits.
a) Just like the GCNP lottery system, there should be no additional fee for a follow up lottery. If you paid to participate in the initial lottery, you have already paid to participate in a follow up lottery.​

3) At present, commercial outfitters are allowed to claim non-confirmation permits allotted to private boaters. This practice must end. The demand for permits by private boaters is too high to support this practice while the potential financial gain for commercial outfitters to add prime-season launch dates to their schedule is too great. Permits allotted to private boaters can only be reserved by private boaters.

4) Short-notice cancellations should be posted on rec.gov and be available on a first come, first served basis. (In other words, the same system as exists right now.) The definition of “short notice” is up for grabs. IMO, if a cancelled permit is released within 30 days of the launch date, it should be available on rec.gov on a first come/first served basis. If it’s released more than 30 days from the launch date, it should be made available in a follow up lottery.

Note: rec.gov needs to offer an email or text notification service that notifies subscribers the instant a cancelled permit is posted on their website. This notification would alert you to first come/first served permits AND to upcoming follow-up lotteries.​

My hope is that the ideas proposed above will make the system work better in the long run. In the meantime, I have a different set of proposals to make rec.gov more transparent and fair. I will post those ideas on a separate thread.

For those wondering, I’m just a private boater who is offering these ideas on my own behalf. I’m not sponsored or employed or affiliated by or with the “whitewater industry” or the government or whatever. I’m not a lawyer, either, as you can probably tell. I do have a regular membership in AW. (And you should, too!) I just want a fair chance to access and enjoy America’s Crown Jewels… our wilderness rivers.

So what do you think about these ideas? Love em? Hate em? Let’s hash out this out and then start advocating for the changes we want to see.
 
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#3 ·
4) Short-notice cancellations should be posted on rec.gov and be available on a first come, first served basis. (In other words, the same system as exists right now.) The definition of “short notice” is up for grabs. IMO, if a cancelled permit is released within 30 days of the launch date, it should be available on rec.gov on a first come/first served basis. If it’s released more than 30 days from the launch date, it should be made available in a follow up lottery.

Note: rec.gov needs to offer an email or text notification service that notifies subscribers the instant a cancelled permit is posted on their website. This notification would alert you to first come/first served permits AND to upcoming follow-up lotteries.​


.

You have some talking points I agree with and some I don’t. I’ll need to respond to one of your points at a time, because I don’t have time right now to address them all.

I absolutely DO NOT want the permit system to start notifying everyone through mass email/text notification of cancelations. It should be equal chance, but not more convenient.

I honestly believe that some individuals have more of a desire to obtain a cancelation and dedicate time to constantly search for a cancelation. Whereas, other individuals would rather dedicate their time to staying informed on the most up-to-date pictures of Kim Kardashian’s ass.

I personally know some folks who don’t put any effort into obtaining a permit every year and then start calling in late spring looking to for a trip to get on. This year on March 16 after the morning permit release, one of my river groups sent out a group wide text inquiring if anyone had luck. One unemployed individual responded, “sorry, I was really tired this morning and needed the extra sleep”.

At this time, the post March 16 cancelation system is working well with it randomly releasing a cancelled permit over a 24-hour period. Previously, someone could have had multiple rec.gov accounts and when their 92-year-old grandma won the lottery, they could get up at 5am (post 3/16), cancel grandma’s permit and instantly pick it up in their name. Now the random 24-hour release has greatly reduced this previous practice.

I believe that permit cancellations need to be released in a manner that is equally accessible. However, mass email/texts will only make it more convenient for the masses only, not more equal. In other words, someone who would rather spend their time looking at Kardashian’s ass, could briefly interrupt their vicarious ass viewing session via text alert to get a permit.
 
#4 ·
jbomb, There is actually precedence for a such permit system already in the US. For "The Wave" Hike in Utah, which is managed by the BLM, only 20 people per day are allowed into the area. Permits are extremely hard to get. You are allowed to hire a guide to take a guided tour, but only after you win a permit. This sure cuts down on rich people being able to buy their way onto exclusive trips.

OTOH, this is such a radical change from the current permit system for river launches, I'm pretty sure the commercial outfitters would shut it down in a heartbeat. And for good reasons, too. The logistics of planning an 8-day river trip full of raft-riding customers who know nothing about WW requires lots of pre-planning.
 
#6 ·
OTOH, this is such a radical change from the current permit system for river launches, I'm pretty sure the commercial outfitters would shut it down in a heartbeat. And for good reasons, too. The logistics of planning an 8-day river trip full of raft-riding customers who know nothing about WW requires lots of pre-planning.
I think (some) guide services would still be able to fill that void even if they didn't have their automatic permit allocation. This wouldn't be all that different from what Ceiba, Moenkopi, and PRO already do for privates.
 
#5 ·
Riverdoghenry,

I'd think you'd WANT to be notified via email or text if there was a follow up lottery of cancellation permits. The GC lottery always lets you know when there are dates available.

But I see your point about short-notice first come/first served permits remaining unannounced. Relatively small numbers of people can go on short notice, so it's better to let the ones who are really hungry and ready for a short-notice trip to get those permits. If short-notice permits got snapped up by those watching Kardashian's ass on YouTube, then they would probably end up cancelling them again in a couple days after reality sets in.

So yes, I agree. No notification system for short-notice first come/first served cancellation permits!
 
#11 ·
The post 3/1 Dino and post 3/16 4-River cancelation process of having cancelled permits released randomly in a 24-hour period is working just fine. Everyone has an equal opportunity to check rec.gov at any time 24/7.

I’m able to get a permit every year by checking for cancelations often, despite having a hectic schedule. I choose to spend my few minutes of downtime looking for permits and not looking at Kardashian's ass, dancing cats on YouTube, or someone's political freak-out on Facebook.

The inconvenience of checking often is the price of admission and what separates those who are more “hungry” for a permit than those who aren’t. Period!

However, I believe that the only needed change to post 3/1 Dino and post 3/16 4-River Private cancelations, is that commercial companies should not be allowed to obtained these private cancelations.

On another conspiracy note, I’ve wondered if the potential exists for a river runner to have a friend or family member who works for rec.gov and can get insider information. For example, a rec.gov employee contacts their family or friend and notifies them that a MFS will be releasing at 4pm. If so, it would be likely this individual would get the permit. How do we know this potential does not exist?
 
#8 ·
On a previous thread I suggested essentially the same as rules 1-3. Though not in as much detail. I am fully in agreement that the best, most fair option for cancelations is a follow up lottery. I also think that commercials get more than their fair share as it is. There is a much higher demand for private permits than there is for spots on commercial floats.

As far as #4 goes. I hate it. I already have much experience with the large text message for permit idea via substitute teaching. Trust me, you will find that a frustrating and annoying system in which you are alerted to every opening, and have incredibly little chance of securing one because there will be a mad dash again by 100+ people to secure that permit as soon as they are all alerted to its existence. Bad idea. Leave the short term cancelation alone. Those who park their butts on Rec.Gov all day can have those.

The other ideas are IMO simple and easy to implement, and just make good common sense.

More important for an additional idea would be to release the permits held hostage by the "salmon spawning" despite the lack of actual evidence that additional boaters damage the spawning beds in any way.
 
#9 ·
I love the idea of having a lottery open to everyone and no allotted commercial permits; if you win and can't do it yourself go hire a guide. I believe this is a more equal system.

However I never see that coming to fruition as the commercial companies control the money and little regard for anything but profit.
 
#10 ·
Uriah Jones, thanks for mentioning the permits "held hostage" by the salmon spawning rule. I forgot about that and I agree that any cancellation during that period should be made available to private boaters. I assume that the original number of permits released during that period were offered with the health of the salmon in mind. (i.e., if no one cancelled, and all the trips ran, the salmon would do fine.) So why not allow those cancelled slots to be filled? Doesn't make sense.

mania, last year, I came off a 4 week GC trip on March 16th and busted ass to make it up to Kanab for the walk-up lottery the next day. I was also #9 and won a permit for the next day. One of the funnest days of hiking I've ever had. Probably never get to see it again! Oh, and they no longer do walk-up permits out of Kanab. Everything is online via rec.gov.
 
#14 ·
Interesting idea to limit the cancelations to the original lottery participants. Naturally, that would drive an increase in the lottery applications. But probably would still make the cancelations a little easier to get. There are a lot of people who do not even put in for the lottery who pick up cancelations.

I am a case in point. I did not put in for the Hells Canyon permit, but knowing that cancelations were easy to get, I just snagged one without wasting the $6. :eek:

I think the idea has some merit. Not sure where I fall on this yet.
 
#17 ·
My sole motivation in suggesting that lottery participants should have first cut at cancellations; is that folks who participated and anteed up money, should get right of first refusal on cancelations. To be clear, I’m not suggesting this to “make the cancelations a little easier to get.” It’s just the right thing to do.

A good compromise would allow lottery participants 24-hours period to obtain an available permit, at which point it becomes free for the taking.
 
#15 ·
Yes, I have never paid to enter the Hell's Canyon lottery since I know I can pick up a cancellation permit with relative ease. At least that was true in the past, and I would think it's still true now.

Maybe the solution is to have ONE follow up lottery for the non-confirmation cancellations that are released in mid-March. After that, any cancellation would be available on a first come/first serve basis on rec.gov, same as it is now. From the comments I've read so far, that would address most people's concerns. I think it would work for me.

Also, I'm afraid if rec.gov is asked to do more work (like run a series of follow up lotteries similar to the GC lottery) they would try to increase the fees a bunch, and I don't think people would care for that.
 
#18 ·
Yes, I have never paid to enter the Hell's Canyon lottery since I know I can pick up a cancellation permit with relative ease. At least that was true in the past, and I would think it's still true now.



Maybe the solution is to have ONE follow up lottery for the non-confirmation cancellations that are released in mid-March. After that, any cancellation would be available on a first come/first serve basis on rec.gov, same as it is now. From the comments I've read so far, that would address most people's concerns. I think it would work for me.



Also, I'm afraid if rec.gov is asked to do more work (like run a series of follow up lotteries similar to the GC lottery) they would try to increase the fees a bunch, and I don't think people would care for that.

Awesome. I think I'm ok with that.


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#16 ·
I prefer the follow up lottery when there is a batch of permits, such as the March 16th releases that come out at once. Redistribute those through another lottery, entry only allowed by original lottery applicants.

After that, individual cancelations can be given out through the current system. I think that would be just fine with more people.

What I despise are systems that require me to sit at my computer all day if I am to compete for a permit. I don't want time intensive permit processes. Let's keep it simple.
 
#21 ·
So I just got an email for GC 2017 cancellations. 3/25, 3/26, 3/28 were available. My questions are when did these get cancelled, are there boaters putting a grand trip together in a couple days or are these getting wasted? If they are wasted could they have been put to use if made available when cancelled? Rec.gov had its downsides but the 24hr random rerelease is not one of them.
 
#24 ·
Seriously. There are a LOT of high quality, short notice days in that list. Oh to be able to drop everything and drive south in a couple days... lottery on thursday for a Saturday launch? Props to whoever can pull that off.


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#23 ·
I understand you are trying to improve the system. But I'm just saying every year I pick up 3-4 permits personally from rec.gov for Dino and 4 Rivers pretty easily. I stopped applying for lottery entries years ago and my number of trips a year has easily doubled. The system is fine in my opinion.
 
#25 ·
"Well, while all you guys were busy on here whining about the permit system and how to make it easier. I was on Rec.gov and snagged a spring Yampa cancellation. System seems to be working just fine."

That's hilarious!😂🤣😂🤣😂


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#26 ·
"Well, while all you guys were busy on here whining about the permit system and how to make it easier. I was on Rec.gov and snagged a spring Yampa cancellation. System seems to be working just fine."

That's hilarious!😂🤣😂🤣😂

This is coming from the guy who confessed to picking up Selway permits two (or was it three) years in a row! Yes, I'd say the system is working fine for you, mowgli! We are all envious of your good fortune, but every time I look for a Selway cancellation (ten times a day, at least), I don't see a single "A."

I wouldn't want the system to change, either, if I were you.
 
#29 ·
This is coming from the guy who confessed to picking up Selway permits two (or was it three) years in a row! Yes, I'd say the system is working fine for you, mowgli! We are all envious of your good fortune, but every time I look for a Selway cancellation (ten times a day, at least), I don't see a single "A."



I wouldn't want the system to change, either, if I were you.

For what it's worth, it was the last two years. And I'd been trying to get a permit on the Selway for 20 years. I think it's fair to say I've paid my dues at least to a certain extent. 😉


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#27 ·
I'm not sure where I stand on the follow-up lottery vs current cancellation system, but I do have a suggestion on the "wasted" Aug. 15 - Sept. 15 MFS permits. Same rules that apply for a permit launch no-show. If you win a permit during that time frame, and don't cancel prior to March 15, you are banned from applying in the MFS lottery for 3 years. I'd go even further and restrict the person from entering the MFS lottery or picking up a MFS cancellation for 3 years.

My friends & I have had terrible luck in the lottery for MS or MFS permits. However, we've done well with cancellations. On occasion we get a cancellation on March 16, but mostly we are the short notice pick up people. We plan ahead and pick a time frame that we can all go, and then we watch rec.gov as often as possible. We all work, don't have advance computer skills, and don't spend time looking at any celebrity ass shots online. We have scored permits anywhere from 3 months to 3 weeks in advance of our desired timeframe. Just dumb luck....right place, right time. We rarely ever pick up MFS permit cancellations, and just plan to fly-in to Indian Creek in September. Last year my friend scored an early August MFS cancellation in early July. That will probably never happen again.
 
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#28 ·
I'm not sure where I stand on the follow-up lottery vs current cancellation system, but I do have a suggestion on the "wasted" Aug. 15 - Sept. 15 MFS permits. Same rules that apply for a permit launch no-show. If you win a permit during that time frame, and don't cancel prior to March 15, you are banned from applying in the MFS lottery for 3 years. I'd go even further and restrict the person from entering the MFS lottery or picking up a MFS cancellation for 3 years.

My friends & I have had terrible luck in the lottery for MS or MFS permits. However, we've done well with cancellations. On occasion we get a cancellation on March 16, but mostly we are the short notice pick up people. We plan ahead and pick a time frame that we can all go, and then we watch rec.gov as often as possible. We all work, don't have advance computer skills, and don't spend time looking at any celebrity ass shots online. We have scored permits anywhere from 3 months to 3 weeks in advance of our desired timeframe. Just dumb luck....right place, right time. We rarely ever pick up MFS permit cancellations, and just plan to fly-in to Indian Creek in September. Last year my friend scored an early August MFS cancellation in early July. That will probably never happen again.

“Wasted Permits” are a bigger problem than just these late MFS dates. A ranger on the 4-river system once told me that 38% of their high-use dates have at least one no-show. If this is true, then some lazy asses are by far the greatest reason folks are not getting cancelations.

If there were a better way of addressing this no-show problem, it would most likely have the greatest impact on river community picking up more cancelations.
 
#30 ·
I seem to recall a conversation on MB about a year or so ago about a new system being studied by the powers that be for the MFS. I may have some of this wrong, but I think it went something like this.....for every year you apply, you get a bonus application slot in the lottery. You have to apply and not get a permit every year. If you skip a year of application, you lose your bonus and go back to the 4 base application slots. Something along those lines. You had to apply every year without a gap to maintain your eligibility for the extra lottery try. I think, once you won a permit, you started over. I can't recall if there was a penalty for getting a permit and not using it???

Does anyone else remember this, or am I just getting old? What ever happened with it?
 
#33 ·
Sad. But we humans are a smart bunch. Quick learners when it comes to getting what we want and figuring ways over, under, and around the rules and barriers that stand in our way. More people are discovering the rivers as a way to recreate, relax, commune with nature, challenge ourselves, and hang with friends & family. This means more competition for access to the resource & permits. For me, that means doing my part to protect the resource, and being grateful for the time I get to spend on rivers, lakes, and other wild places.
 
#35 ·
They just need to implement a system of weighting and release cancellations with subsequent lotteries, like the grand. No more of the crazy clicking, busy phone line bullshit.

There shouldn't be a max on points though, which will ensure that you will win a permit one day! they could set up a dashboard of all your rivers and points, with notifications of upcoming lotteries. I have been applying for Selway, Salmon, and Dino permits for years and never won a single permit. I should have mucho points built up.
 
#36 ·
Late cancellations suck for everyone, but they suck the most when the permit goes unfilled or cannot be filled due to Federal rules like the salmon closure. That's when folks get mad, and rightly so. But while it's tempting to want to punish people who cancel late, you really need a robust weighted lottery system to make that work. And that requires that each lottery applicant provide a ton of personal information to the administrators.

The obvious comparison is to the GC Lottery, of course. The only reason they can weight the lottery or reset your points when you win a permit or run the river is because the administrators have a lot of info on you and can track your history on the river. Administration of the GC Lottery is still controlled by the GCNP River Office. I DO NOT trust rec.gov with a lot of my personal info! They have been hacked in the past and personal info was stolen.

Given the present administrators of the 4Rivers and Dino lotteries, it would make me very leery to give them that much more power and control over the system.
 
#38 ·
Just a quick note about this thread:

"The Powers that Be" are paying attention, so if you want to add your input to the conversation, please do it now. It's not whining to think about problems in the current permit system if your goal is to identify ways to make it work better.

We are talking about PUBLIC lands here. Which means that YOU have a say in how the system works, if you want...
 
#39 ·
Late summer MFS should absolutely be reissued if they are rejected or not claimed by March 15. The way they do it now doesn't even meet their own rule.

I like the idea of a followup lottery. But make people pay another $6 or whatever to cull out the riff raff. Yeah it sucks to bleed more cash to rec.gov, but I think it will benefit the motivated ones.

It is completely unacceptable that commercials can pick up private permits, those are OUR permits and not for outfitters. That would be easy to game too(if you won a permit) just enter as an individual (you and all your guides) and cancel to snag it as the cimoany. BS!
 
#40 ·
I have come to pretty much the same conclusion. After the initial lottery, there should be one (and only one), follow up lottery to distribute the non-confirmation permits. Since it costs money to run a lottery, there will need to be a separate fee to run the follow up lottery. I'm not sure what the appropriate fee would be, but certainly no more than what the initial lottery costs ($6). After the follow up lottery, any more cancellations would be posted randomly on rec.gov where they can be reserved on a first come/first serve basis.

So the only thing that has really changed is that there is a follow up lottery in mid-March to handle non-confirmation cancellations. Everything else is the same.

What I like about this scenario is that boaters are free to do what works for them. If you want to maximize your chances of winning a permit, you'd enter both the initial and follow up lotteries. Or, if it works for you to pick up short-notice cancellations on rec.gov, you can just do that and skip the lotteries altogether. To each his own.

I agree completely that private permits should NEVER be made available to commercial outfitters. That's a system ripe for abuse and there's absolutely no reason for it. If the goal is to prevent launches from being wasted, then attack the problem by penalizing the no shows and late cancellers. Don't penalize all private boaters by taking permits away from us!
 
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