harassment in numbers - Page 5 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 07-22-2016   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbagkayaker View Post
Sorry to hear,

There are always two sides to every story. As mentioned above your should "always be able to eddy out above the craft in front of you if they are not in your party!!!"

But someone can't just hang in the wave until the sun sets either. Or dilly dally holding up traffic. Large groups tend to slow things up.

I think the lesson here is to be mindful of traffic both up stream and down. Be courteous. Also talking goes along way. Its hard getting around a large group.



Good luck.
Step back and look at try to understand the others view. Pleasure boaters typically run in one style and commercials in another. I agree with attempting to distance from the commercials, if possible. Commercials provide an experience unlike what privates are trying to achieve. Spacing on rapids is important regardless of private or commercial, your group or others. If someone is surfing a hole it is the responsibility of the upstream boater to control his boat to not interfere with the downstream boat, period. Most boaters are really cool and affable.

So lets look at the guides experience: a challenging section of river, more than likely (but not necessarily) experienced crew members. The guide doesn't know their abilities, the guide is responsible for their safety,pleasure,and that of the gear. He has his obligation to educate/entertain them as well. Maybe this crew was not exceedingly capable of this section -. Regardless the guides have their hands full. Additionally, the trip has several boats in a similar situation. Each guide has to be aware of the other boats and crews (with probably limited experience) in their group.

So they have less experienced/educated people on the water, more of them, are on a specific timeline, and have more responsibility than the play boater. Add to that they have to work with other trips on a very popular stretch of river.

What can we use to compare this to? Could you drive a race car full of paying people on the Daytona Raceway while weekend racers are on it? How would you feel about one of those guys tailgating you while your going 200 mph? Oh, now add that the passengers control the accelerator, and brakes (the driver/guide is describing how the track and car behave together, observing how each passenger performs their assigned duties, and making sure the OTHER tour race cars don't have a passenger fly out) .... May or may not be a good example but gives me something to think about....

We have to get along. Guides have a fun, hard job. Understand YOUR situation. Give AMPLE space to everyone. You let that guy surf his crew in that hole, you got a guide that will probably lend a hand if you need one on that trip, maybe another. A professional guide WILL notice, probably get YOU to a place downstream that is suited for you to pass, if the situation warrants.

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Old 07-22-2016   #42
 
Crested Butte, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by live2boat View Post
My name is Josh. I work at River Runners. I have long hair and a white helmet. Please stop by our fisherman's bridge location if you would like to discuss this further. I am approachable and will treat you with respect. I am just not one for writing on forums. Please stop by, I will buy you a drink at our bar.
Well there you go,

go have a beer with Josh
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Old 07-22-2016   #43
 
OTR, Colorado
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Can't we all just get along? I am reminded of Trump's speech from last night.

"The American people will come first once again. My plan will begin with safety on the river – which means safe eddies, secure take outs and protection from gapers. There can be no gnar without steep terrain and water. On the river, I will outline reforms to add millions of CFS and trillions in river tourism economy that can be used to rebuild America."

USA!
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Old 07-22-2016   #44
 
BV, CO
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"If someone is surfing a hole it is the responsibility of the upstream boater to control his boat to not interfere with the downstream boat, period."

"scooby450", generally a good post but I believe this statement is incorrect. The upstream boater "always" has the right of way. Deferring to a surfing boat is certainly a nice thing to do but the downstream boat has the right of way. The exception to this is in a playboating situation where a group of people are playing a feature. Then alternating eddies and downstream players usually bring good will and share the feature. However, even in that type of situation, a down stream running craft has the right of way. But, just because you have a "right of way" doesn't mean you exercise it without regard to others on the rio.
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Old 07-22-2016   #45
 
cedar city, Utah
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Interesting thread. Thought I would add a reminder that "right of way" is something that is yielded, not taken. Its a nuance but has huge influence on shared space. Just like in traffic, if someone fails to yield the right of way other people are supposed to adapt. In an ideal situation this system works but it's rarely in your benefit to be entitled to a black and white concept of passage.

The confusion this concept has on the road also seems to play out on the river. The good news is it seems like most of us are willing to be flexible in popular places and go out of our way to help each other (no one subset of people in our community seems to have a monopoly at that charitable behavior).

Best of luck out there.

Phillip
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Old 07-22-2016   #46
 
BV, CO
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Excellent distinction, Phillip.
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Old 07-22-2016   #47
 
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right of way is great. but, if some boat is in front of me and decides to stop and play or surf a hole, that boater should be aware that a boat upstream may or may not be able to eddy out.

i like to surf holes now and then, the first thing i do is make sure that there is not a boat behind me that will now have to make an evasive move to go around or find another line.
the statements proclaiming that you are following too closely if you can't eddy out while the downstream boat is surfing, are ridiculous. last time i ran numbers, i don't recall all that many places to eddy out. of course at those levels there were almost no other boats on the water.
to me, someone stopping to play in a hole with traffic behind them is rude. if you want to stop and play in that hole, let the boat(s) behind you go by, and then play.


i have seen some commercial people that were good and helpful, but more that were the opposite. i try to avoid the ramps when the commercial trips are around.

its kind of like going 50 in the fast lane, its kind of rude.
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Old 07-22-2016   #48
 
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Bazzaro, World
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spencerhenry View Post

the statements proclaiming that you are following too closely if you can't eddy out while the downstream boat is surfing, are ridiculous..

Fair enough.

Eddy hoping is an advanced skill. I guess. It becomes a must skill to have in your quiver out here in Idaho. Its way too easy to get separated from your group or miss a feature.

I boated the numbers a few times last month and I did not feel there was any shortage of eddies. I had no issues eddy hopping and creating space. But yes the pace was sloooooow.

90 seconds in the hole/wave and let the next ride happen.
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Old 07-22-2016   #49
 
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not sure what level you ran numbers at, but at 2400 there are not a plethora of eddies for a raft or a cat.
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Old 07-22-2016   #50
 
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Originally Posted by spencerhenry View Post
not sure what level you ran numbers at, but at 2400 there are not a plethora of eddies for a raft or a cat.
The trip being discussed in this thread was around 600 cfs. Big difference, and the level plays into the discussion big time..... not to mention 2400 is over the commercial cut off, so of course you didn't see many boats. Probably just a few local kayakers if I had to guess.
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