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Old 08-19-2014   #91
Snohomish, Washington
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 22
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
I have never seen a creature craft style anything. Surviving is not styling.
Well, as has been pointed out earlier: No one wants to see the styled runs. But for the sake of argument I submit this video:

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Old 08-20-2014   #92
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,345
Originally Posted by RiverDriver View Post
I'm actually really curious who you mean here.

I only speak of that which I know and I know Cramer. He styles shit. When I wrote this I had forgotten that I met Aaron on the MF this June, but didn't boat w him and it was an easy level so I can't say I know his boating.

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Old 08-23-2014   #93
Laytonville, California
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
[QUOTE=BoilermakerU;373388]I guess I didn't realize they were strapped into the boat. That's crazy in any craft, any class IMO. Save the seat belts for the shuttle and ride home!"

Really? So don't ever try kayaking then because guess what! Yes that is right they actually strap into those things even put half of their body in there with no way to escape! Sure death to anyone who misses their roll... OK rolling a Creature Crafts is similar except you don't start your roll under water you breath-set up-then roll, getting out of the Velcro strap is about the same as pulling your spray skirt but in a Creature the boat still floats after you exit so I don't see why that is less safe.
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Old 08-23-2014   #94
Laytonville, California
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by carvedog View Post
Sure you gotta watch your downstream oar anywhere you are. But sidesurfing with four oars flailing around you the whole time for four minutes your chances of oar to head contact become significantly higher.

And it does seem that anyone who runs the 'shit' in creature craft seems to do this hole surf rodeo thing.
Referring to the video and this sentiment that the people in the boats are just there for the ride.... Well you can see Tony who is in the back seat doing well to manage his oars to keep Dylan from taking one to the head. And to think anyone came out of that without a respect for the river
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Old 08-23-2014   #95
Laytonville, California
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by SpeyFitter View Post
The CC sure does give you a much larger margin in terms of room for error. That video where the guys are stuck in the hole on the North Fork Payette linked - most guys on rafts or catarafts would have been taking a nasty swim on that one, if they hit that hole. It's certainly no substitute for experience, knowledge, or training but....

I originally in my head said "no way" when I saw the CC but it is growing on me a bit to the point I can certainly accept, respect, and understand the guys who run them. The thing that I'm wondering is are we going to see raft manufacturers make add ons for their boats for this reason? (some type of inflatable enclosure that doesn't let you completely flip over, etc.). I mean I know AIRE has the Cataroller
So the video of Oceanic is me on the bottom side of the boat and there is a lot that is not apparent in this video... First we would have been fine if I would have hit the roll but was thinking about what we were about to drop into and I grabbed my seat for a second and missed it, yep it dose take some skill. Second, Alec and I are both class V boaters and have ran the gnar in lots of boats we knew what that run can offer and we had a plan... its no accident that Darren bumped us out with the oar frame that was our safety he can get out of that hole easier in an oar rig. Third, people put umbrellas on rafts and it is basically the same for a creature shade in the sun with some other benefits. Fourth, the boat is patented by Darren Vancil who has been dirt bagging it for almost 2 decades developing the craft building them in his garage and getting lots of skepticism along the way so if you are going to run this kind of water maybe don't get the cheaper copy, creature crafts are built to exceptionally high quality standards.
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Old 08-23-2014   #96
Enfield, New Hampshire
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 332
Just curious, but do the CC paddlers running this sort of maelstrom have some sort of heli rescue harness with their Pfds? Hard to imagine successful shore based rescues in this sort of water.
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Old 08-23-2014   #97
Laytonville, California
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
No, I've seen them run in person a few times - they don't style anything. They beater down whatever river they are on.

This thread took a wrong turn with the new laws/rules comment. Obviously there should not be new rules on the river.

At the same time all boaters should come together and agree that these things are awful - because they are.

Here's a direct link to the North Fork video if you haven't seen it:

That is legitimately terrifying. I agree with the sentiment of Brian Ward's comment on that link. Putting unskilled people in these things above Jacob's Ladder is irresponsible and shows a lack of respect for that river and that rapid in particular. That rapid has a history of being very unforgiving to mistakes. Thankfully this didn't end up much worse.
Awful? Really? We aren't even considered boaters? For running Jacobs Ladder (the same one where they have a kayak race) so sorry for developing a new sport on your river.
That is me in the boat took a beating on that one but have had many clean lines through Jacobs and the entire NF Payette, Alec is a solid boater who regularly runs class V in rafts did you think we just pick up hitch hikers?
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Old 08-23-2014   #98
Enfield, New Hampshire
Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 332
simple question..

In the decade-or however many years its been - since the CCs have been running class5/6 water how does their accident rate[ a swim or anything more serious ] compare to the accident rate with other inflatable craft running cl4/5?

This sort of raw beta should answer many of the questions posed all through this thread, don't you think? I feel a lot of the sentiments expressed here are a direct response to the sheer visceral response of seeing an ungainly craft bobbing along in a mind boggling, terrifying aquatic environment. Casting aside being judgmental of the should run or should not run CC in cl 5/6 attitude, Surely you cannot help but admire these guys.
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Old 08-23-2014   #99
Laytonville, California
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2013
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Originally Posted by slickhorn View Post
this pot clearly ain't been stirred enough....

it seems to me the CC mindset is to make class V accessible to anyone. Thats the point of demo days: forget years of building technique, judgement, and safety skills, just jump in and run the shit!

I find that a sad reality of modern american instant gratification. There will always be folks who want the thrill without the skills. I think that's going to lead to fatalities over time. I think those people perceive a run like NF Payette as a roller coaster ride and with similar safety margins.

Now, when a legit class V oarsman choses to use a CC for a specific run cuz it's the right tool, then fine, I got no problem with that.

But the point is to make class V class III. I will continue to say that until I see people using CC on class III because they find class III water to be fun. When that happens, the casual CC user will have become a boater.

But that video of the hole ride in Cross Mtn Gorge? one blow from an oarhandle and you're unconscious and drowned. I do not see the respect for consequences, or even awareness of consequences.

Maybe that's just due to the video editing though ....
Going to work through this one paragraph at a time:
Demo days are for developing Creature Craft skills not introducing people to whitewater most of the people on the NF trip are boat owners looking to work on there skills on the Wenatchee we do demos on the lower section where commercial raft companies run trips not on Tumwater.

Roller Coaster ride/ those people, come on we take it serious and it is way more fun that some theme park ride.

I've guided class V in rafts so now I guess you have no problem with me getting into a creature craft.

I also run class III sometimes in a creature craft but one of the comments we get is that they don't belong on anything that is not class V, am I still a boater if I took a SUP down some class III and left the craft at home.

Cross Mountain video, well I do agree with you on that one they could have died better blame the boat because they were clearly unaware of any consequences must have just accidentally ran the shit on that one.
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Old 08-24-2014   #100
breckenridge, colo.
Paddling Since: 79
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 47
Well put!

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