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Old 09-19-2011   #41
North Bend, Washington
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 476
Gotta say Jenkins- from the story you tell- I could def learn a thing or two from you. Trying to impress upon custies that have no idea how close to death they are about to come if they don't do exactly what they are told to do is more than frustrating on less difficult river- on what you're describing- well, lets just say I'm amazed all you did was pop the guy with the paddle.

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Old 09-19-2011   #42
mhelm's Avatar
Steamboat Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 267
I've come very close to hitting customers on some class 5 runs...(mainly Chattooga section IV). I've boated Gore a lot, but rafting it would suck, especially with clueless tourans. Many people have no business being in there, and I think Jenkins probably was more concerned with his guests' safety than hurting their feelings!

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Old 09-19-2011   #43
North Bend, Washington
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by UserName View Post
If they are in way over their head.. they know it.. Don't need it beaten into them.

You must never have had to guide East Indians
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Old 09-19-2011   #44
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
Jenkins, props for coming on here and offering an explanation.

Gore is in my humble opinion on the frontier of what is commercially raftable and hence attracts much debate.

Levels and customer experience are certainly two very important factors, but it disappoints me any time another guide or owner draws a line in the sand concerning either. Setting your own personal guidelines is prudent but thinking they should apply to everyone is folly.

I can remember an incident on class 4 in which a client pursued battery charges against a guide back at the outpost - food for thought.

Personally, having run Gore and commercially guided more river miles than most, I have a ton of respect for those of you that run it. Any trip that brings everyone home is a successful one.
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Old 09-19-2011   #45
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
btw - UserName, I noticed you classify yourself as a "former" - that alone is grounds for you to button it

what did Teddy Roosevelt say about the guy who actually enters the arena?
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Old 09-19-2011   #46
Thronton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 665
Originally Posted by Jenkins View Post
...And, guess what Boilermaker? - It worked, but only for a few minutes. We had plenty more challenges that day...
I was actually on your side, although I am still not sure I'd hit anyone, not with a paddle anyway, and not very hard (baseball style to me implied assult-like force, which I am sure you didn't really use or the guy would be injured!). I agree with you that too much shit gets said on the Buzz by people that don't really know what happened. However, the season is more or less over for a lot of us, so I guess people need something to do until next spring!

And no, I am not a guide but have felt your frustration with friends and others on simpler trips than Gore! But then again, I have kids.... LOL
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Old 09-19-2011   #47
JDHOG72's Avatar
Wolcott, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 432
Ha..another thread out of control. I was in there that day too and was even paddling with front rangers!! It was comical to us passerbys. Prob not as comical to people in the raft. I have seen this raft company in Gore many times and the guides always seem very competent and friendly. Wish I was in there today.
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Old 09-19-2011   #48
adgeiser's Avatar
Denver,, exhaustion
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 578
Originally Posted by Jenkins View Post
DeepSouth and friends - You know how I knew you were from Denver?
Really?Because no front ranger is a serious boater? Nothing makes you sound intelligent like bashing someone based off of where they are from.

Never mind when the person you make a comment about IS the reason we have Bailey Fest.

Also your explanation does not change the comedic value to those who were not either you or the crustie you struck.

Your report of the events was nice though, so thanks for that.
"We should restore the practice of dueling. It might improve manners around here" -Edward Abbey
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Old 09-19-2011   #49
niwot, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 96
yup- done gore with stern frame

Originally Posted by raftus View Post
Guiding the crux in Gore Rapid with a stern frame is very problematic. Hell rowing the crux of gore is problematic. You have to ship your oars when you need to be in control of your position in the channel and your angle. Also going over some of the holes on a stern mounted frame would be guide ejector city. I haven't guided/rafted Cherry Creek (yet) so I can't make a comparison to that. I love stern mounts on wider channels (even at low water), but Gore presents some real issues. I know some experienced class V cat boaters that have had their lunch eaten on Gore.

For low flows on Gore about 750-800 is the low end for what I consider fun in a raft. I'm know people have run it down to 500-600. Kirschbaum's gets interesting at low flows. And the meat line in gore gets shallow as well.
OK couldn't help myself after seeing all the posts. Ran a 12' sotar with slant board frame with 2 strong paddlers up front- the year was 1990- the flow1300cfs. Yes- have the video. But it was my very first run- and yes, I did portage the crux but dropped the boat in below Gore falls and ran scissors and pyrite- and all the rest. I've run it down to around 980 in my 11'6 cat and it's still OK ish. Haven't tried it lower than that- and probably wouldn't. The stern setup worked well- but THE move in Gore is the crux- and I can't speak to how the run would have gone. We had swimmers in one of our paddle crews that day- some of whom simply said screw it and walked out.
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Old 09-19-2011   #50
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
Damn it mountainbuzz... look what you have done now!

Hey Jenkins... honestly thought it was funny and worth sharing. Sorry if it you got upset, not my intention. I would have guessed that you and your buddies got a good laugh after the customers left, but maybe not.

I try and see the comedy in life, but that obviously has issues in translation on the internet.

Glad a couple of you folks thought it was funny too.

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