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Old 09-15-2011   #31
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
I'm sure it was a love pat. A small nudge to get the attention.

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Old 09-15-2011   #32
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
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Originally Posted by Matt J View Post
btw I don't consider a t-grip to the back of the pfd out of line
No T-grip... flat part of the blade hitting the PFD swung baseball bat style. The thing that cracks me up is that I'm sure every raft guide has wanted to smack a customer every once in a while (maybe every trip?). This guy just went off and did it. Comedy!

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Old 09-16-2011   #33
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Leadvillian, Colorado
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oh well - sounds like they had a safe trip and you got some comedy
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Old 09-16-2011   #34
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Overseas, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1997
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Posts: 135
I'm for stern frames on Gore, only if someone films it.
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Old 09-17-2011   #35
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 18
What is the name of the company ?
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Old 09-18-2011   #36
Everywhere, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 5
To The Buzz of Mountainbuzz

As the paddle-swinging guide of this very raft under discussion, I hope to put this comedy to rest. Why such an event was not left to comical barstool conversation instead of a publicly posted comment, Iíll never know. Over the years, this website has amazed me how it can bring people to spend more time writing about boating than actual time on the water. But, for those of you seeking truth, I offer you first-hand perspective.

From what I see, the comments accumulated here fall from two distinct categories. 1. Comments from guides / former guides. 2. Comments from non-guides. For those of you in the first group, thank you. For the critics in both groups, however, I present one thought provoking question: Have you ever guided customers down Gore Canyon or any other Class 5?... Anyone? BuellerÖ

As a class 5 kayaker myself, I understand the luxury of being responsible for only oneís self. Yet having the responsibility and burden of being in charge of additional lives in Class 5 whitewater is something few can relate to.

Over the last 16 years in commercial rafting (7.5 of them in our canyon of topic), Iíve come across perhaps 6 or 7 special people that have required a physical blow to the helmet or pfd to get them to calm down and listen. That Friday was one of those days. It was a first for me in Gore, and the first time I ever had to swing way out to hit a guy in the front of the boat. And, guess what Boilermaker? - It worked, but only for a few minutes. We had plenty more challenges that day.

I, too, find it a little funny each time Iíve had to actually hit someone, and assure the baseball-bat-comparing critics that Iíve never made it hurt. In Class 3 water, Iíd typically count how many times Iíd have to say the word ďstopĒ before it worked. Nine times is my record. Think about that. In Gore, guides donít have time to say things twice, let alone 9 times. Now, Iíd be willing to bet that Mogur has never seen Gore Canyon, but his oh so educational and rare #1 is true and occurred that day. Typically, Gore customers are of higher-caliber, but there are simply no guarantees. REZ427 - Youíre the man, but Iíve taken countless newbies down there for multiple companies. Customer screening is not always perfect, and none of them have any clue about the dangers there.

The group that Friday clearly had never been introduced to the urgency of a life and death situation until that comical and dangerous moment witnessed at Scissors. These tender young souls earned the title of my 2nd worst group taken down this canyon, and they have no idea how close they came to a brutal beatdown. That day will not exit my memory any time soon.

Iíve seen too much nasty shit go down in that canyon and Iíve been around too many dead people to want to watch MY first customer die there. Equally, I do no want anyone elseís crapulance to get me killed. After years of success and failure teaching many thousands of people how to paddle, Iíve learned how to keep my instructions clear and simple. The level of clarity, sincerity, and intensity I have with my customers in Gore is obnoxiously thorough. No amount of additional explanation was helping these special people become more balanced, calm or capable either. Had those people had a more docile guide, one that didnít end up dropping his 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th F bomb of the season that day, someone could have died. Some people should just stick to board games.

So to all of you bloggers and critics out there, understand this. When my crewís lives are in danger and one guy is about to get us all killed, I guaranfuckingtee, that I will again, without shame, strike another customer with my paddle to regain their attention. If you have any questions or doubts behind this perspective, I suggest you visit this canyon and take a few customers down yourself. You will likely either end up high-fiving your paddle enthusiastically, or want to hit someone with it.

Stubby - Ideal raft flows are 700-1400. 1200 is my favorite. Major props to the guys that paddled it this spring at 9K. By far the biggest successful run ever. Jeuvos gigante.
Studytime - You try it. Iíll film it and blog about it on mountainbuzz.
DeepSouth and friends - You know how I knew you were from Denver?
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Old 09-18-2011   #37
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 428
right but why did you hit the poor man
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Old 09-19-2011   #38
raftus's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
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Originally Posted by paulk View Post
right but why did you hit the poor man
Shirley, you can't be serious.
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Old 09-19-2011   #39
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The High Ground, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,325
Violence is never the answer.
"Let us cross the river to the other side and rest beneath the shade of the trees." ~ Last words of Thomas Jonathan ''Stonewall' Jackson
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Old 09-19-2011   #40
Cisco, Utah
Paddling Since: Dawn
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 351
I, too, find it a little funny each time I’ve had to actually hit someone,....
Please let us know what company you work for so that we can steer ppl away from a company that 'ever' finds it acceptable to hit clients with anything regardless of whether you think
...I’ve never made it hurt.
As a former commercial Gore Guide with well over 100+ commercial trips up there... I want to tell you that you should know it is crazy to meet ppl in the morning and take them down Gore. So that is your choice.. as is the choice to hit someone with your paddle.

Guiding Gore can be really stressful. The topic here is not really about your clients stress.. it is about yours. Hitting ppl with paddles is not stress management.. it is stress exacerbation, only serves for you to blow off steam in inappropriate and counterproductive ways, and give a laugh to the ppl who are not boating with you.

I've been up there with ppl who are way over their head. I had one guy walk the whole canyon after applesauce and he was happy to do so. If they are in way over their head.. they know it.. Don't need it beaten into them.

Hitting someone with a paddle is not a professional way to deal with anything, under any circumstance. It is not the action of a professional guide.

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