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Old 09-14-2011   #21
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,097
Originally Posted by BoilermakerU View Post

And to top it all off, like any story, the facts tend to get sensationalized as the story gets passed along, especially on the Buzz, especially after a few beers at the take-out...
No sensationalizing here. Raft guide was yelling at passengers while whacking them with his paddle while we watched. It was funny. We laughed.

If you are doubting the veracity of my story... well... I really don't care.

Also, to all the buzzards disecting the finer points of guiding or trying to justify guides on gore, thats not really the point. The guide in question could have been the best guide with a crew of gapers or he could have been a rookie gore guide with bad lines. Don't know, don't care. The point of the story was simply the technique of whacking and yelling after a crappy line. Pretty damn funny.

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Old 09-14-2011   #22
North Bend, Washington
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 476
Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
If you are doubting the veracity of my story...
I'm impressed with the big words...keep 'em coming!

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Old 09-14-2011   #23
Costa Mesa, California
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 138
Why dont they use stern frames on Gore. I was up in Kremmling earlier in the year at the coffee shop and one of the guides said Hi as we were reading the raft brochure. I asked him about Gore Canyon and he said it is the most difficult comercially run river in the country. Out here we do Cherry Creek on the Tuolumne which gets the same "most difficult commercially run river" status. On cherry creek all the commercial companies(two) run stern frames. Not true stern rames but slightly forward. I always run stern frames on technical rivers as this gives you the most control. Im just curious why commercial trips on Gore paddle guide. Any idea? Is there rapids you wouldnt want to have oars on?
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Old 09-15-2011   #24
raftus's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2000
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 1,128
Guiding the crux in Gore Rapid with a stern frame is very problematic. Hell rowing the crux of gore is problematic. You have to ship your oars when you need to be in control of your position in the channel and your angle. Also going over some of the holes on a stern mounted frame would be guide ejector city. I haven't guided/rafted Cherry Creek (yet) so I can't make a comparison to that. I love stern mounts on wider channels (even at low water), but Gore presents some real issues. I know some experienced class V cat boaters that have had their lunch eaten on Gore.

For low flows on Gore about 750-800 is the low end for what I consider fun in a raft. I'm know people have run it down to 500-600. Kirschbaum's gets interesting at low flows. And the meat line in gore gets shallow as well.
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Old 09-15-2011   #25
Ashlandistan, Oregon
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 64
After guiding for years on the Ark, rafting Gore, and a lot of other runs out that way I moved out to the west coast. I feel like I had an extension to my guiding career when introduced to the stern frame. I don't know how many times I have said to myself how I wish I could have had the option of a stern frame back then. My shoulders would be in a lot better shape that is for sure. Out here on anything similar to Pine Creek/ Numbers or Gore I row a slant board sterny. On tight moves where the oars need to be shipped I micro steer/ hold the angle with my oars shipped forward and call turn commands if needed. The whole guide ejector thing I was told about so many times in CO. is deminished to nil with a slant board in my experience. Try it you might enjoy.
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Old 09-15-2011   #26
Cisco, Utah
Paddling Since: Dawn
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 351
I think the companies have enough trouble with the guides whacking the customers with paddles. DONT GIVE THEM OARS!!!!
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Old 09-15-2011   #27
ednaout's Avatar
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2005
Posts: 966
I think its funny that people refuse to simply laugh at a funny story! ! ! ! ! !! !! !! !! !! !
"You know that old trees just grow stronger and old rivers grow wilder, everyday..."
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Old 09-15-2011   #28
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
the biggest whitewater I've ever seen run with customers was with a stern mount

never rowed the slant seat but it makes a lot of sense

funny how some ideas don't jump watersheds
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Old 09-15-2011   #29
Matt J's Avatar
Leadvillian, Colorado
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 381
btw I don't consider a t-grip to the back of the pfd out of line

not in Gore Canyon - you did sign up for class 5

maybe funny as a private kayaker, but as a commercial guide probably less than funny
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Old 09-15-2011   #30
Estes Park, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 35
Yes! A little tough love for the custies! Corporal punishment is probably not still legal on the river though Hope he had a "perfect run" (all customers fall out, guide stays in)!

I paddle guide Westwater on a regular basis, and most paddle crews are perfectly capable with proper instructions, but I had a group of older folks from the other day from the wine country of California. Despite trying to make an early move across the river, we still managed to slam sideways into the rocks in front of Hade's camp below Little D. Very frustrating.

I think some people never have to give a 100% effort or even a hard physical effort in their everyday lives. They don't really understand that yes, you are paddling for your life (more or less), and that while rafting is super fun, it is not a spectator sport (please be a passenger on an oar boat if you think it is). It combines danger, effort, and teamwork - that's why it's fun!

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