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Old 12-15-2013   #81
Flagstaff, Arizona
Paddling Since: 2002
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 384
Motorboats: Blowing non-boater minds for over 60 yrs

The motor guide that "jumps" a camp in the afternoon spent all day trying to get there just as the oar trip did. The fact that their day began further upstream might make some think it's fair that they use the 'first come, first serve' camping rule with no guilt about how hard it is to row a boat on a windy day. I too find it rude when a motorboat passes late in the day with no communication/eye contact, but just because it's been a bit of work to get to camp doesn't entitle anyone to it.

The fact that someone isn't a boater, or may never be a boater, doesn't exclude their right to experience this trip. From a commercial passenger (non boater) perspective, yes, 18 days non-motorized is waaaaaay better than 7 motorized. But... time is money. Sad but true. The non-boater who doesn't have the experience and money to afford the precious river time in big heaps every year will still say that day 3 on their once-in-a-lifetime GC motor trip was the best day of their entire life. Or perhaps it inspires them to make some changes in their life or even aspire to become a boater and return to the Canyon for another taste of river time. Respecting your time on the river is diminished by not respecting my time on the river.

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Old 12-15-2013   #82
Tom Martin's Avatar
Flagstaff, Arizona
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 818
Hi Andy, thanks for your post.

You noted "Like many others in this sampling I'm just not convinced motorized camp jumping is actually a worthwhile issue."

Well, not knowing, I asked the question. After visiting with a river runner who was still livid about some camp jumping that happened to his trip last summer, I was curious if this may be the reason why the NPS wanted to decrease thirty self-guided river trip lengths in the spring.

Like you, after looking at the responses, I have come to the same conclusion, pending further information.

The post title is a question. Not a statement of fact.

"...telling everyone it is..."? Please. You may have missed my post in this thread stating "Countless Times All over oar trip passed by motor trip who went to another camp than the one the oar trip was going to. This has been my personal experience too, that trips would much rather get along, and the vast majority do."

"Motors on the Grand" is a different topic, one of values and management of a National Park.

You noted "And frankly I'd rather see trip lengths extended in both the the fall AND the spring" Frankly my dear, I am with you!

You then noted " I have made the GCPBA aware I want them to take that message to the table with the NPS and other stakeholders." Excellent! Thank you! But i would caution that your letter needed to go directly to the NPS superintendent. He won't even know this is bugging you as the GCPBA board won't say it's an issue unless they change their minds, which could happen yet. I'd suggest you cc your congressional rep as well.

You also noted "But if we don't get extra days in the spring..." Andy, it's not about getting extra days in the Spring, but losing them. I assume your statement was a typo. Trip lengths are 21days in April and the NPS is proposing to cut half those trips to 18 days. If you meant "But if we don't get extra days in the FALL..." I would agree with you.

Since 2006, there have been no changes to the CRMP that directly benefit private boaters. The NPS now proposes to adversely impact 30 spring river trips and the GCPBA suports that. I respectfully disagree with their decision, and encourage those of us who do not appreciate the proposed cut backs in April trip lengths to respectfully notify the NPS directly:

Superintendent David Uberuaga
Grand Canyon National Park
PO Box 129
Grand Canyon, AZ 86023

and cc your congressional representative.

All the best, tom

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Old 12-16-2013   #83
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
Schutzie is now confused.

The issue was "camp jumping" by evil, dirty, motorized COMMERCIAL trips who swamped innocent, nature loving oar powered private groups as they raced by to grab the only camp left in the canyon.

The answer is clear; do away with first come first served camps, assign them at the time the permit is issued, and hold everyone to them, NO EXCEPTIONS!! By GOD the rangers better find you where you were assigned to be on the day you were supposed to be there. Violations would start with stiff fines and escalate to permit cancelations (Your permit is canceled; start climbing. You must be out of the canyon by midnight) and equipment confiscation (we're confiscating your boats and equipment, except for the groover; please take it with you when you climb out).

I think the Gates and Yampa now use assigned camps; other government managed rivers as well, and I'm sure all conflict has been eliminated as a result. There is no conflict among boaters on those rivers and we can all thank the government handlers for that. The alternative anarchy of the Grand Canyon experience is all the proof required that the government must regulate our recreation if we are to have a true "wilderness" experience.

Or, we can all recognize that permits issued for 14 days, or 18 days, or whatever are in fact a "strong recommendation" I.E; once you leave Lees Ferry no one cares much when you pull out, provided there are no complaints and no calls for search parties.

Perhaps a better strategy would be to push for more launch dates with shorter duration, recognizing that a 9 day trip will in reality be a 14 day trip. And then, once the park service notes that homesteaders have established gardens at mile 88, we can deal with the permitted VS actual duration issue.

By then probably some wit will have figured out a motorized oar thingy, capable of enough speed and power that wake boarding in Lava is a possibility, and we can debate that injustice as well.

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Old 12-16-2013   #84
malloypc's Avatar
Albany, Oregon
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Posts: 256
No mention of COMMERCIAL in the OP.
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Old 12-16-2013   #85
fdon's Avatar
Christopher Creek, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1969
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Posts: 288
and the core issue was never about late afternoon camp poaching. are you just delusional, trying to be cute or is your view from over the hill that grand?
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Old 12-16-2013   #86
kikii875's Avatar
Orem, Utah
Paddling Since: 1969
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 207
Originally Posted by fdon View Post
and the core issue was never about late afternoon camp poaching. are you just delusional, trying to be cute or is your view from over the hill that grand?
The core issue may or may not have been about late afternoon camp poaching, but the OP was. It took quite a while before the "shorter spring/longer fall trips" issue was presented as the underlying reason for the OP.
Don, Schutzie was being sarcastic/tongue in cheek. Lighten up Francis.
You had me at 'Hey, Row'
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Old 12-16-2013   #87
fdon's Avatar
Christopher Creek, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1969
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Posts: 288
lighten up??? what's this??? you didn't understand that I was just being sarcastic??? so sorry to step onto the "turf".
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Old 12-16-2013   #88
BCJ's Avatar
Grand Junction, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 523
I find the world to be a simpler place if I just let some people pass me . . . I often get to the same stop light and find them sitting there too. The danger of rattling on about some issues is it often spawns "more rules" and "more management" when what we really need is less. I think that was the message hidden within Schutzie's sarcasm. Thanks Schutzie!
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Old 12-16-2013   #89
Dipshit with the most.
carvedog's Avatar
Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,497
If I had a motor in the Canyon I would wait until afternoon and try to gun right past you in the eddy to make the camp just seconds before you.

Camp jumping fool I am. Just how I roll.....
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Old 12-17-2013   #90
fdon's Avatar
Christopher Creek, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1969
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 288
Well Carve, Your chance is at hand. I launch on 12-28 for -3wks. Start your engine as any and all challenges are accepted! Winner makes great eye-contact as they pass, even smiles as she waves, buys the drinks and provides free ice and gives plenty of sage advice about all the good lines in lava. All the motorheads can provide the cheerline. Rich P. and Tom will compare notes and work in tandem like old plow mules. Shutzie can get an early start on his garden over the hill. We'll have a for real luv fest; rainbows and waterfalls included; it is the Grand Canyon afterall. I hate it when a thread devolves into nothing more than a post building exercise...that's sarcasm for you.

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