Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-13-2013   #71
lhowemt's Avatar
at my house, Montana
Paddling Since: 2020
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 4,345
How long until the buzz has a poll to ban Tom? Oh wait, he's not the one mud slinging names. Come on people, disagree, throw shit around, but do you have to personally attack? Does everyone have to get their digs in on Tom as a person? This is like watching a slow motion group pit bull attack....

I am a river, babe - I've got plenty of time, I don't know where I'm going, I'm just following the lines..... - "We are water" by Shaye
lhowemt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013   #72
Calgary, Alberta
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 361
I am not familiar with the rules on the GC, but I feel like I must be missing something here... Unless you reserve specific spots with your permit when you get it, I don't understand why someone getting there before you is a violation of your rights as a private trip boater.

To me that's like complaining that a Ferrari got the best parking spot because you're driving a Beetle.

It seems like luck and timing are required to get the best spots... As it should be.

And let's just say that if you've done the GC enough times to be upset you didn't get a specific camp site instead of just loving that you are there, your life is already better than a lot of people (including me), and I kind of feel like maybe you should stop going if that's such a big problem for you.

cupido76 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013   #73
wildh2onriver's Avatar
irvine, California
Paddling Since: 1987
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 1,197
Originally Posted by lhowemt View Post
How long until the buzz has a poll to ban Tom? Oh wait, he's not the one mud slinging names. Come on people, disagree, throw shit around, but do you have to personally attack? Does everyone have to get their digs in on Tom as a person? This is like watching a slow motion group pit bull attack....
^^^ like.
wildh2onriver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2013   #74
caverdan's Avatar
C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
Originally Posted by lhowemt View Post
How long until the buzz has a poll to ban Tom? Oh wait, he's not the one mud slinging names. Come on people, disagree, throw shit around, but do you have to personally attack? Does everyone have to get their digs in on Tom as a person? This is like watching a slow motion group pit bull attack....
caverdan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013   #75
BCJ's Avatar
Grand Junction, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1978
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 523
Nah! Can't ban a guy for havin' an opinion! But, can challenge a guy to explain what the hell he's talking about and why it's relevant!
BCJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013   #76
Westminster, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
I don't see what the big deal is with the shorter days in the spring, especially when they are made up in the fall. This will allow folks that do not have as much vacation or PTO time to think more about getting on a GC trip. For average people it is tough to get 20+ days off for a float down the Grand. I was not at all interested in a GC trip until my buddies and I did a 10 day trip from lees to Pearce in winter. If this trip was any longer I would have probably declined in favor of something else. I am in the boat with most people and only get two weeks paid time off. These long trips are what takes away the opportunity for a lot of people because they simply can not get enough time off. Did you know America is one of the stingiest countries with vacation and PTO leave? With the average American only gets 13 days Paid Time Off?

Saving a camp because another party wants it is only a courtesy. There are no rules and no reservations, so at the end of the day the early bird gets the worm. I understand the frustration when that motor boat putts right by you to take your prized sunrise camp spot. Although, with all the positive responses it seem highly unlikely that's this happens but a few times a season.

I climbed for a long time before I started boating. It was standard protocol to blaze past someone to be the first on route or to get that prime bivy spot. Not one time have I seen a post on the climbing forum about someone crying that they were beat to a spot. They usually just adapt and overcome and make due with what they were delt.
coloclimber512 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013   #77
fdon's Avatar
Christopher Creek, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1969
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 288
Originally Posted by richp View Post
Hi Fdon,

Yes, GCPBA supports shorter April trips, in concert with an equal number of longer September trips.

Hope that helps.

Rich Phillips
Secretary, GCPBA
Hi Rich,

Thanks for the clarification. It helps tremendously. I do know the complexities of advocating through the lens of a Board of Directors. Been there. Still there.

Being a fan of risk assessment and consideration of all points of view when making a policy change or taking a position on an issue, I wonder if basic boater/trip safety has been part of the mix on this trip length shuffle by both the Park Service and the GCPBA Board.

Like I said before, I am not a fan of the Spring season due the wind and I suppose the lower flow also. With those two factors affecting downstream travel in a negative fashion I can see trip quality eroding with less days to get through the canyon. That being said, I do know folks who favor that time frame and the shortened trip length will not make them very happy.

Where I think trip safety could come into play is a scenario like this:
Leaving the dynamics of the TLs authority and groupthink out of this, imagine a group faced with the shortened schedule (such as the 18 day alternative) dealing with slow flows compounded by stiff upstream wind and cold daytime temps. They may be forced off river early some days, have to forego some attractions and suffer rower fatigue. These factors can lead to discontent in the ranks and perhaps poor judgment in their decision making. I can envision a group deciding to run a drop late in the day in an attempt to make up time or camp at a desired spot. They may be putting themselves at risk with such a decision for all the obvious reasons including dealing with a late-in-the-day rescue attempt.

From where I am sitting, the safety factor should be right up in the front of the line of considerations when contemplating a change of policy like this one. I hope the Park Service and the GCPBA Board have both considered safety in this process and if NOT, drop what they are doing and inject safety into the decision making mix. I would not want disaster to occur or to even be remotely linked to such a decision without a complete risk assessment happening on the front side of the proposal.

Perhaps the TOATs objective still is in need of a bit of fine-tuning?

Don Farmer
fdon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013   #78
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Don,

Your point is well taken, and frankly I don't know how heavily the Park has weighed the possible safety issue you describe.

But there is another related angle. I seem to recall that earlier in this thread or in a related thread elsewhere, someone noted the daylight differential between Spring and Fall trips does somewhat offset the effect of shortening Spring trips. You have longer days that are getting longer each day in the Spring, whereas you have shorter days that are getting shorter each day in the Fall. It may not be a total wash in terms of hours on the water, but it is something of a compensatory element embedded in the change under discussion.

However, that's not really the main thrust of what you're saying, and I'll do what I can to highlight it going forward.

Hang in there

Rich Phillips
Secretary, GCPBA
richp is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-14-2013   #79
Tom Martin's Avatar
Flagstaff, Arizona
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 817
Hi Josh, Thanks for your thoughts.

I would respectfully counter that trying to bend Grand Canyon to our social needs of today is not only ignoring what Grand Canyon has to offer us as a society, but our American heritage as well. The Grand Canyon is about time, and we need to be respectful of one of the 7 wonders of the world and what it has to teach us about time.

A staffer for a Utah Congressional representative used just your analogy only "better." He noted the vast majority of American's are not river runners and never will be. But they do drive cars, hence the river should become a highway with banked curves and the highway supported on pylons in the river. There would be no way to boat the canyon, but we could all drive our cars through the Canyon in a day, stopping at Phantom Ranch for lemonade. I laughed until I realized he was dead serious.

It should also be noted that “the early bird” has a motor and that’s the only reason they “gets the worm.” It may not be morning sunrise the oar trip wants, but to avoid rowing another three miles to the next camp the other side of a major rapid at the end of an already long day rowing into the wind, a distance the motor boat can cover in 1/3 the time.

Also, when you climb through another climbing party, you are both muscle powered. A faster rowing trip will overtake a slower rowing trip, but at least the playing field is a little more level.

Respectfully yours, tom

Ps: Cupido, hope this helps you understand the situation a little better. It's not a Ferrari vs a Beetle, but a Ferrari or a Beettle vs a Bullock cart. Cheers.
Tom Martin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-15-2013   #80
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,906

Like many others in this sampling I'm just not convinced motorized camp jumping is actually a worthwhile issue. Let's assume the incidents you've combed from your list, and everywhere else you've searched, are only 5% of the actual incidents. This means motorized camp jumping only happens about 20 times in the thousands of nights private parties camp in the Canyon every year. And the positive encounters and assistance to private boaters also seem to greatly outweigh, in number and in terms of their impact to private boaters' collective experience, the few incidents of motorized camp jumping that do occur.

Further, if motorized camp jumping were truly the common "disaster" you're telling everyone it is, then wouldn't there be at least one negative experience among all the positive stories in MB's current sampling of private boater encounters with GC outfitters shared in this thread?

Most of us would be happier without motors on the Grand. But they're a reality right now and that's not likely to change anytime soon. And frankly I'd rather see trip lengths extended in both the the fall AND the spring. I have made the GCPBA aware I want them to take that message to the table with the NPS and other stakeholders.

But if we don't get extra days in the spring I can live with that considering there's an offset in the fall. And if the GCPBA decides this is not a battle worth fighting right now so they can pursue other goals beneficial to private boaters, I can live with that too.


After reflection, here are two other points on this issue:

1) Among the rare incidents of motorized camp jumping, isn't it possible that in some or most, the commercial guides have extenuating circumstances justifying changing camps? Such as a sick or hypothermic passenger, equipment failure, etc.?

2) By making a mountain out of a molehill you really poison the waters between the user groups and contribute to animosity between the user groups over a non-issue. Here's my own experience as an example:

After I'd been boating a few years and first started paying attention to Grand Canyon issues, over a decade ago, I read and heard stories about motorized camp jumping and how evil the outfitters were from folks on the GCPBA list and elsewhere - probably even from you. This was at a time before new GC management plan and the GC waitlist was pushing 20 years. Lots of private boaters were, rightfully, very dissatisfied with the situation and even though I'd never been on the GC it raised my ire too. At the time I took on the attitude of a self-righteous victim, wronged by "a system stacked against private boaters" by those rich, nefarious outfitters. This attitude greatly influenced my interactions with commercial outfitters in those days, and in retrospect caused me more negative interactions with outfitters because of MY self-righteous and confrontational attitude - kind of like the incident reported in Climbdenali's post. Doubtless things would’ve come out much smoother if I'd been more understanding of everyone's place on the river and had been more cooperative.


Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
Andy H. is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fraser Canyon afternoon 5-22? Wetz Kayaking | Trip Planner 11 06-22-2010 12:56 PM
Near disaster on the Fractions today nemi west Whitewater Kayaking 2 07-13-2008 10:34 PM
Disaster in Myanmar, how to help? Mike Harvey The Eddy 8 05-19-2008 07:00 PM
Arkansas disaster waiting to happen SBlue Whitewater Kayaking 23 02-16-2008 10:22 PM
Near disaster on the Susitna hoya Whitewater Kayaking 1 10-12-2004 08:40 PM

» Classified Ads
Patagonia Guidewater and...

posted by clemkins

Two patagonia drybags, one is the guidewater II 50L, the...

14' steel raft trailer

posted by groovy

hand made steel welded. This was a commercial trailer used...

Recretec Folding River...

posted by clemkins

Recretec folding river table, purchased from Clavey in...

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:59 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.