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Old 09-26-2012   #11
Pugetopolis, Washington
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 767
Don't you know? River running is ALL about image ....

I won't even boat with someone unless they have a Sweet helmet and a Greenjacket.

I live down the road from you,in Snoho county,and even though I'm super-core and wear a trucker hat-I'd be down to do some boatin on the Sky. I cat boat and don't give a flying-fuck what anybody floats on. Esp someone that's ventured down the Stikine.

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Old 09-26-2012   #12
Skillkilla's Avatar
Arvada, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2009
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 296
i think they're fun lookin. i like the one with the teeth on the web site ! would happily join in on a run. anybody local that has one- count me in. all the people makin negative comments- you know you want one ! and if somebody was giving one away on here , it would be gone in 5 minutes. it would nice to run huge scary stuff and just be able to enjoy it without having to worry if your gonna make it home.

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Old 09-26-2012   #13
Preacher of the Profit Paddling Since: 1990
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,062

I'll throw some fuel on the fire. I heard CC will also do custom builds for customers, that CC also uses only materials tested on the hardest runs in N. America, and you often follow-up with past customers to see if they're still happy with their purchases. This also goes far away from the trends in normal whitewater. Few rafts or anything else could be seen as lowhead rescueable, and you guys do it. Why? You just trying to save some rubber?

Here's where I'd like to see it go. I'd like to see what happens if a bunch of top notch modern rafters review a Creature Craft on some read and run Big Water Class V+, or they can use their past rig. GO TIME!
I love to dance, but who needs the music- It throws me off.
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Old 09-26-2012   #14
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BZN, Montana
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,489
Originally Posted by RiverDriver View Post
So, the problem is that it lessens the consequences, and the severity of consequences is vastly reduced?
I fail to see how this is a problem. Honestly. When skydivers started updating their equipment with failsafes and backups was it the same? When mountain bikers started wearing helmets and protective body armor was it the same? When Mountaineers began using synthetic materials for protection from the elements, O2, or strapping ladders to the side of the mountain? Or were these ways for them to mitigate the risks of what they were trying to achieve? In every sport there are updates in technology that help to reduce the risks to the people involved.
And somehow this is "tainting the accomplishment"? I don't see it that way.
* - I just reread this and it sounds angry. I'm not angry, just trying to make a point.
Yes the consequences are essential to the experience. A better analogy then the ones you provided would be the introductions of sport and aid climbing. There is a difference between providing new gear to deal with risk and fundamentally changing the experience to remove the risk, or largely remove the risk.

On the one hand it's cool in that it provides unparalleled safety on the river for rescue applications and yes providing access to those who otherwise wouldn't be able to access. That's part of the point though. How many people hike up pikes peak when there is a road that goes to the top? Some do I'm sure. However the accomplishment is certainly lessened by the fact that any body no matter how poor their athleticism, how inept their on mountain skills are or how generally unmotivated they are can also say they stood on top of it because they drove their car up there.

Maybe it's just an image thing; the overwhelming amount of footage I have seen, and others as well, of CC's involves at least one if not multiple CC's in a group routing shitty lines with little control. In every other discipline that results in a big slice of humble pie. I believe this treatment is a large reason why our community is so tight-knit. Everyone remembers what it's like to have a bad day and we help each other out as a result. The CC represents a fundamental departure from that shared experience.
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Old 09-26-2012   #15
Duluth, Minnesota
Paddling Since: 2007
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 175
They seem difficult to maneuver (possibly meaning it takes more skill? Maybe the skills aren't up to the equipment yet?) But I've seen plenty of raft footage with shit lines on class III. Don't forget the only videos we're seeing cc on are class V. How many people slamming the cc's for "cheating class V" are class V boaters? I'm not. And I said it on the other thread, getting stuffed in some of those massive holes on the stikine sounded like a terminal mistake. That means's that for consequence? Follow the logic about removing risk...I guess we should be running nf payette with no helmets, or pfd's in squirt boats. In the end, who cares? I think basketball is a lame ass sport but I bet people care about my opinion on that as much as the cc guys should be caring about all the negativity.
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Old 09-27-2012   #16
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Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Feb 2006
Posts: 690
first off, i encourage and appreciate the use of a variety of crafts on the river. running the stikine in any craft is a huge accomplishment. mad props. personally i kayak, paddle guide, row, squirt, tube, and occasionally swim, but mostly i am a kayaker. if people want to duckie, river board, creature craft, stand up paddle, stride, shred, or whatever it's all good. that being said, talking shit is an integral part of sports (in this case running rivers) when you're participating on the expert levels (class 5).

if dudes want to take creature crafts down rivers, cool, good for them. i see it as a less pure form of river running in the same sense that reinhold messner is a purist of mountaineering, eschewing expedition style tactics in favor of a lightweight alpine style ascent without oxygen on high peaks. to each their own.

my personal opinion of creature crafters is influenced by watching them do silly shit. a few years ago i was paddling the gauley. i wanted to boof the energizer, which is the right hand side of sweet's falls. a creature craft dude decided to surf in there for a really long time, pretty much with no style or regard for anybody else. i took a different line. after watching this dude stuck in the pourover for a long time he tied a rope to his boat, swam downstream, and used his body as an anchor to pull the boat out of the pourover. while using his body as an anchor was an interesting technique rarely practiced, it was careless. the gauley is crowded. sweet's falls sees hundreds of people passing through every day. i believe in the prudent use of ropes on the river, which is only when absolutely necessary. the risk of entrapment of another person or risk of losing of the rope was very high. this creature crafter's carelessness with ropes was absurd. dude was out there having fun, oblivious to the hazard he was creating, and high on his own foolishness.

sure, not every dude with a creature craft behaves like this, but perhaps this carelessness falls right in line with the same mindset that causes these dudes to run whitewater in a craft that "mitigates the risks."
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Old 09-27-2012   #17
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portland, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 2,188
I'm sure they are like fat chicks. Fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you doing it ...
Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it "guaranteed", I will. I got spare time.
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Old 09-27-2012   #18
Boise, Idaho
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 505
I don't mind them and I think they probably take a bit more skill than most of us give them credit for...

My concern is that, should they become popular, the community they would invite in might never have a serious, healthy respect for the river and its dangers.

We all see the difference in crowds from the weekend "beer float" boaters on your lazy class III float, and rafters who tackle more serious class IV. The former has no respect or understanding of whitewater, the river, river systems, and generally is the crowd who not only gets into trouble more often, but also trashes the river.

I'm not saying CC boaters are these people; I'm saying the removal of risk might invite this crowd were CCing to gain popularity.

For better or worse, the risks and learning curve of whitewater is somewhat self-policing, and as another poster said, makes for a (bit) more tight community.
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Old 09-27-2012   #19
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Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,497
Originally Posted by Avatard View Post
I'm sure they are like fat chicks. Fun to ride but you don't want your friends to see you doing it ...

as for me, I prefer a room with a view. At least I think I do. I would run one to try it out though.

Pretty sure I am not a cataraft guy either, but those humorless bastards are no fun to give crap to either. A buddy keeps trying to tell me they have changed and are better, but you still lose your beer and litter if it slides out of your life jacket. Not a problem in my raft. And isn't that what this is all about? Not losing your beer?

Besides I had all my gnar surgically removed, so I don't do things like think I need to run the Stikine.
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Old 09-27-2012   #20
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,373
To each their own...

When I'm kayaking, generally my goal is to style the most elegant lines I can on the rio. It can be like making art with the river. It is often about appreciating the most subtle nuances and feeling and working with them. I see no indication that a CC is a good choice for that type of an experience.

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