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Old 03-31-2015   #21
Steamboat, Colorado
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 582
I'm not sure Shredder's really disabled, but rather using the extreme example to defend his position. Maybe I'm off on that one, but that's what I got out of it.
Take a hike literally!

Why would anyone oppose more wilderness in today's ever-evolving world? Rising population.... diminished resources.... Shame on you. Where would you be without the wilderness?

It's a good day to be a duck....
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Old 03-31-2015   #22
adgeiser's Avatar
Denver,, exhaustion
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 578
Wilderness lands to be sold ?

Jamie D said
Motorized users need to own that. It's the SXSs that ARE ruining the motorized single track. It's the ATV muzzleloaders that ARE blowing the archery hunt. It's the dirtbike riders that ARE treating the trail like the track that go roost the corners when it's muddy. Its the rock crawlers that ARE leaving fluids all over the campground. Its the snowmobilers that ARE poaching into the non-motorized areas on Rabbit Areas.

First I am adamantly opposed to selling off of any 'wilderness' land.
We need places without motorized or mechanical access.

As stated earlier I am a motorcyclist.

Now to the above quoted bit.
Why are you blaming archery season being ruined on the muzzleloaders?

Besides the FACT that Colorado has some of the strictest laws to limit and keep muzzleloading season as primitive as possible.... Besides that we all know that it is the compound shooters who are dumbing down and ruining archery season. 😄

I too am an archer (traditional archer), your points are not productive.
With Colorado's regulations most responsible muzzleloader hunters will not take a shot much beyond 100-125 yards. Yet a routinely here stories at the archery range about compound shooters lobbing arrows at 56-60 yards. ( btw my favorite way to hunt small game is with my muzzleload shotgun)

These discussions have gotten so attackful and are missing the point.

Once again laws are being passed that are only in the interest of $ making, $ making (sorry started to channel some B Boys there)

Continue to tear each other down instead of writing your respective representatives and letting them know that if they continue to push their own agendas instead of what is best for The People that they will no longer be in office.

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"We should restore the practice of dueling. It might improve manners around here" -Edward Abbey
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Old 03-31-2015   #23
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 130
I love all things with motors included the ones I mentioned. The muzzleloader comment was directed at the ATVs the muzzleloaders often use to access there hunt. I'm attempting to address certain behavior by certain motorized users that creates a stereotype. The existing stereotype of motorized users is the challenge that motorized users need to fight. My point is simply that what people who oppose motorized use "see" is the stereotype, not the rules and regulations following user.

Here is an example: I live in a place where most of the MTB trails have been burning in by dirtbikes. For 20 years plus, dirtbikes and MTB have coexisting including each user good extending courtesy to the other. 2 or 3 years ago, a handfull of new-to-town bad apples decided to poach a couple of trails marked as non-motorized. The trails are ruined with deep ruts. Now days, my rule following dirtbike riding friends (who also built the MTB trails) get all kind of shit from hikers and MTBers when they park at this trail head to ride legal trails.

Get it? It's the stereotype of bad apple motorized users that they are forced to deal with.
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Old 03-31-2015   #24
Issip's Avatar
Albuquerque, New Mexico
Paddling Since: 2011
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 185

All the wilderness will eventually be gone because humans are greedy and will eventually destroy it for profit, sell it to the highest bidder, etc.. Some of us fight along the way to slow the destruction - it is not preserved forever, it may make it one or two more generations.

As far as access to wilderness for the injured/mobility challenged, I'd like to say this. I was on crutches and in severe pain for a year of my life. One of the most difficult things to handle about that situation for me was my inability to enjoy the outdoors as I constantly do when I'm healthy. Were I permanently unable to easily go into the wilderness I would not want it destroyed because I was "locked out". I think it is really sick that anyone would try and make that argument about the less than 1% of land left in a "wilderness" state.

Look into adaptive equestrianism if lack of access to the tiny bit of remaining wilderness is your biggest concern, or appreciate our State and National parks that have access, but to advocate paving the world because some people are no longer ambulatory is disgusting and most mobility challenged people I know would agree with me. I happen to know quite a few as my wife is an OT. If you don't know what an OT is then you aren't mobility challenged.
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Old 03-31-2015   #25
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 75
Quickly, we as the public don't have any legal "right" recreate or use public land. The idea that public land is "ours" has been created to make us feel good about our federal lands and (hopefully) incentivize input on public land management. We can, of course, influence policy with our vote and voice. The original purpose of land management was economically based. Wilderness designation is a more biocentric approach to benefit land ecology (which also economically benefits us).

So the topic at hand...
This bill includes language that would allow the sale, but primarily assigns public lands to the states. Of course, this appears to be an attempt to give private interests the ability to use "public land". Once transferred to the states, their management would apply. Of course states don't have the $ to operate and manage these lands effectively. They would "need" money from drilling, mining, forestry, etc. This kind of bill wouldn't affect most states outside of the west. As pointed out in this thread, Alaska's huge amount of public land would be at stake.
States receive federal payments for the federal acreage they contain. This is due to the large amounts of federal lands in the west. It diminishes the amount of property a state has to apply it's property taxes. States have much to lose if this passes.
Payments in Lieu of Taxes .

It's unlikely to pass, most states are not interested in the consequences. However, the environmental and economic implications of selling the west off could be catastrophic.

To reiterate Imyers:
"Yes, this bill is a big deal. There was a significant campaign against it. Did you speak up? Here is one opportunity:

Better yet, write a personalized letter to your representatives. "
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Old 03-31-2015   #26
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Phuoc My, Da Nang, THE 'NAM
Paddling Since: 1845
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 1,988
@Shredder-scott, in addition to the comments others have made above, my thoughts are this....

Contrary to what most OHV users seem to think, SHOCKINGLY, not everyone enjoys the sound of two or four stroke motors ripping up and down and all around.

Many people enjoy going to places in nature so that we can enjoy something very rare in our modern world- SILENCE. The sounds of nature. Birds chirping. Babbling water. Wind in the trees. While YOU might enjoy the BRAP BRAP BRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAP of a dirtbike, to others, that is worse than nails on a chalkboard. It seems to be a common theme amongst OHV users (not all, but many) that because they enjoy it, then by golly, EVERYONE must enjoy it! And you would be surprised just how loud a dirt bike can be, and just how far that sound can carry. There's been times when we've been hiking and have heard dirt bikes from five or six miles away.

Why is it ok for you to demand your right to recreate on your OHV, but it's not ok for others to demand their rights to silence and freedom from the noise you generate?

As well, there is no denying that the noise generated from OHV use negatively affects wildlife as well. Nothing worse than seeing a deer, elk, etc, munching on grass in a meadow and then having it run off in terror because, you guessed it, BRAAAAAP BRAAAAP BRAP BRAAAAAP. Noise from OHV use prevents animals from accessing watering holes and food sources, and causes trauma and stress to creatures that, again, much like some humans, really don't enjoy the sound of a two or four stroke engine.

As others have pointed out, there is SUBSTANTIALLY more acreage for OHV use across this country than there is for Wilderness use. And yet you feel "Locked Out"? Sounds like it's all take and no give. If we are supposed to be ok with you demanding areas for your forms recreation, then are we so wrong to demand areas for our forms of recreation?

A big problem for me is this: there are many responsible, courteous, respectful OHV users out there. Many who are completely satisfied with the acreage they have, and understand the need for both sides of the coin to get what they need. Many of the users on this very forum are like that. However, there seems to be a MUCH higher percentage of OHV users who don't give a shit what anyone thinks, and they're "gonna drive wherever the goddam hell they want!! because this is a goddam free country!!" If you really want people to start respecting and take OHV use seriously, you don't need to get on wilderness users, you need to get on other OHV users and start working on your image as a user group on the whole!

You make some valid arguments and there is some nuggets of clarity in your posts here and there. But your continued insistence that YOU are losing out because of wilderness, whilst having BILLIONS of acres to recreate on, because of a few million acres is protected from your destructive form of recreation, is just illogical at best, completely idiotic at worse.

"Don't f$&@ing eddy out, just run it! Whaddya doin??" -LMyers
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Old 03-31-2015   #27
Longmont, Colorado
Paddling Since: 98
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 328
Wow, the amount of misinformation, assumptions, stereotypes and down right ignorance in this thread is dumbfounding.

All I'll leave you with is that there's no way senators in DC know what's best for the land in our state. Lands (and the funds to manage them) should be left with the states. Keep the national parks and monuments with the Feds, give the rest to the people who actually know what's best and can properly manage it.

And my 2 cents on wilderness- It's awesome when used properly, a tragedy when used improperly as a selfish land grab. There's plenty of the latter in case you care.
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Old 04-01-2015   #28
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 45
Here's some actual information on the recently passed budget amendment and what it could mean for future bills related to the sale/transfer of federal lands: Federal public land transfers get a Congressional boost — High Country News
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Old 04-01-2015   #29
Boise, Idaho
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 505
Originally Posted by GPP33 View Post
Wow, the amount of misinformation, assumptions, stereotypes and down right ignorance in this thread is dumbfounding.

All I'll leave you with is that there's no way senators in DC know what's best for the land in our state. Lands (and the funds to manage them) should be left with the states. Keep the national parks and monuments with the Feds, give the rest to the people who actually know what's best and can properly manage it.

And my 2 cents on wilderness- It's awesome when used properly, a tragedy when used improperly as a selfish land grab. There's plenty of the latter in case you care.

You don't know how wilderness is done, obviously, if you simply think its just Senators in DC doing what they want willy nilly. Further, you do realize that federal lands are actually managed locally, right? Ever been to a travel management planning session, scoping group, etc.? The federal organizations that manage public lands do so by the regional and local directors, agents, and staff, with local input.

Wilderness is done the same way, with all the local stakeholders, often over a period of a decade or more. But you knew that, right?

The states have proven that have no interest in managing public lands; they didn't at the time of statehood, when they declined title for them, and they don't now, when they have explicitly stated they want to profit from them (by any means - development, resource, commercial sale, et al). They also realize they can't afford to manage them, especially in the status quo, so they're asking the Fed to subsidize the management, while also ceding all control to the states. El-Oh-El.
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Old 04-01-2015   #30
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Charleston, West Virginny
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 461
If the bill for fed land management was entirely passed on to the states, I guarantee that all of wv federal lands would turn into strip mines and well pads within a few years.

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