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Old 03-29-2015   #71
adgeiser's Avatar
Denver,, exhaustion
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Originally Posted by Emmielou View Post
Going back to the original post, even if you support a grand bargain that keeps more land open for OHV and other motorized use, the Bishop's land bill as it exists is not the right solution. The issue is far deeper set than simply, "do we need more wilderness protection or not?"

Utah has found itself as Ground Zero in the debate over state vs. federal rights specifically related to land use. While other states are currently trying to initiate a grab of federal lands, and controversies related to this issue have taken place elsewhere (such as the Bundy ranch extravaganza in Nevada) Rep. Bishop has emerged as one of the most vocal proponents behind forcing the federal government to turn over public lands to the state for management (or mis-management), specifically for the purpose of leasing or selling that land to the extraction industry. His record points to that as fact.

His claims that he is trying to work to secure local interests are a charade and total BS. Make no mistake, his goal is to remove as much public land from wilderness designation or any sort of protected state as he possibly can. That includes existing trails! Imagine if you showed up to ride into Hey Joe only to find concrete rigs expanding it to a multi-lane thoroughfare for a Halliburton project. While groups like SUWA and the Grand Canyon Institute are certainly invested in protecting our open spaces as wilderness, they have conceded a lot of literal space in this debate to protecting existing roads and trails for all types of use. That is a far better compromise than giving the butchers of public space like Rep. Bishop free reign to exploit and divide our public spaces as they see fit.

It is possible to support OHV and motorized recreation and still be a steward of the land. It is possible to enjoy the serenity of a wilderness stretch of river and also enjoy a long weekend with your family on Lake Powell.

Asking Rep. Bishop to support more protected open space as part of his proposal does not mean giving up your right to access OHV trails, even if you don't support some of the more extreme requests in the other direction to close off existing trails. If you refer to the original post, these open spaces are already treated as designated wilderness under federal law until their ultimate state is determined. This would merely continue the status-quo, not expand its reach AND would permit current access and grazing rights.

I implore you to see the compromise here, and to realize that there is no perfect solution to this dilemma that will make everyone happy. All interest groups will be making a sacrifice in the face of increased use, but, though I cringe at the reality, I would far rather we had a few less wilderness rivers stretches, OHV trails, nature parks, single track routes, etc. than to give them all up to a faceless bureaucracy that owes their souls to Halliburton and company.
I also am pro OHV and pro river, I spend about 70 days a year on the river. It is my major addiction. I also ride and do about 30,000 miles a year on my motorcycle.
...all that said, I believe that both groups are merely pawns in the political game here.
As with most things political today $$$ is the driving issue here everything else is political smoke and mirrors to distract from the money at hand.

to view this as a defeatist attitude is to miss the point.
"our" politicians do not represent the majority of us. (i will admit that they are slightly closer at he state level) At the federal level 99% of them are millionaires (per a .gov site on congress and senate a few years ago) they make on average 243K year (starting first year is 172K,while the average american makes 53K, if they serve 5 years they qualify for a pension, does anybody you know get that?

How do we expect them to represent us if they are not us.

the only way we will truly be represented is demand major changes to the system.

Cut their pay.
Limit their terms.
Manage their benefits.

Not trying to change the subject, that's just how i see the issue

"We should restore the practice of dueling. It might improve manners around here" -Edward Abbey
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Old 03-29-2015   #72
Park City, Utah
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Thanks Emmielou. Very well written.

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Old 03-29-2015   #73
Denver, Colorado
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This is an interesting thread w/ good points being raised.

Originally Posted by Phil U. View Post
I have a hard time extending real respect to some members of our society at this point. There are genuine haters in ascendance and exploiters willing to lie and manipulate that have become very powerful and very good at what they do. I truly believe in honest, respectful dialogue with all stakeholders in a system that is fair and people are sane, or "reality based" if you prefer. I think this is the worst I've ever seen in terms of a functioning democracy. And part of my disappointed perspective is driven by the broad emergence of anti science true believers. "Crazy" is perhaps clumsy or too broad or inflammatory but a functioning system of respectful dialogue is compromised when fundamentalist religious belief systems are given the same voice in a science based issue as the scientist.
Well said, Phil. Reality based is probably the correct thing to say here. The people we have an urge to call "crazy" are most often just rigid ideologues. The problem when you become a rigid ideologue, of whatever stripe, is that you often have to emancipate yourself from certain realities. Ideologues delude themselves into believing that their respective ideology can explain all the secrets of the past, the intricacies of the present and the uncertainties of the future. They believe that if people just followed along with the tenets of their ideology that the world would be a glorious place.

The problem is that reality does not work that way; the reality of our world is that it is extremely fortuitous. But people need consistency, and they often can't face the overwhelming diversity, and the chaotic and coincidental conditions of our world. So they seek an explanation that will give them consistency. Ideologies give them a consistent and digestible explanation. This is also why conspiracy theories are so prevalent in our society. (i.e., it is not just the chaotic and complex reality of geopolitics that resulted in X and Z, but a small group of men in a smoke filled back room controlling the world.)

And this is pretty much what we are seeing with the people who think climate change is a hoax. They have convinced themselves that it is some grand Democrat conspiracy where 96% of the world's climate scientists are all in collusion with them. In other words, the scientific realities of climate change are intruding on their ideological worldview, so they write off this science as a hoax, or junk science. Many of them do believe in other aspects of science, but just not climate science. However, the climate-change denialism is now, unfortunately, beginning to wrap around a nationalist, religious based, movement. And we should all be concerned about this movement's rise to power.

And, Phil, I'm with you when you mentioned having a hard time giving these people respect. I often lapse into wanting to throw verbal stones at them. There really are people who are consciously being dishonest, but there are many more that are simply unconsciously being dishonest (i.e., they whole-heartedly believe in their ideological worldview, and that they are telling the truth.) The only method I have found that might possibly work to get through to them is using the Platonic method; keep asking them questions that lead them to their own contradictions, and then hope that this seed later sprouts into something positive. When I am frustrated with these kinds of people I also try to remember a wise point that President Lincoln once wrote:

"When the conduct of men is designed to be influenced, persuasion, kind, unassuming persuasion, should ever be adopted. It is an old and a true maxim, that a “drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall.” So with men. If you would win a man to your cause, first, convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what he will, is the great high road to his reason, and which once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause, if indeed that cause really be a just one. On the contrary, assume to dictate to his judgment, or command his action, or to mark him as one to be shunned and despised, and he will retreat within himself, close all avenues to his head and his heart; and tho’ your cause be naked truth itself, transformed to the heaviest lance, harder than steel, and sharper than steel can be made, and tho’ you throw it with Herculean force and precision, you shall no more be able to pierce him, than to penetrate the hard shell of a tortoise with a rye straw. Such is man, and so must he be understood by those who would lead him, even to his own best interest.”

However, it is worth mentioning that Lincoln's wisdom did not work to persuade the southern slave owners to end slavery. We all know what was required to finally end the evils of slavery. And, quite honestly, I'm deeply troubled by the fact that we are currently dealing with many world-wide problems of this magnitude.

I guess in the end... reality will always win. And hopefully that happens before we have completely destroyed the very thing that sustains our lives. The other thing in regard to the rise of the ideologues into power (like these UT politicians, and also the ones making grounds in CO state level politics) is that these Koch fueled ideologues are their own worst enemies, and are horrible at governing. They might fuck up a lot of things in the process but eventually people will tire of them, and seek to replace them.

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Old 03-29-2015   #74
Denver, Colorado
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Originally Posted by marko View Post
using the Platonic method

***Edit*** Oops, the Socratic method.

Sent from my iPhone using Mountain Buzz
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Old 03-29-2015   #75
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Steamboat, Colorado
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To suggest that this beautiful lake, with all the benefits it has and does provided is fowel and criminal seems rather closed minded to me.

Scott loves lake powell and would love your support too.

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Old 03-30-2015   #76
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Denver, Colorado
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Originally Posted by swimteam101 View Post
To suggest that this beautiful lake, with all the benefits it has and does provided is fowel and criminal seems rather closed minded to me.

Scott loves lake powell and would love your support too.

Hummm swimteam

Why the need for the personal attack ?

I stand by my statement, and reasons and facts for it as previously stated in this thread.

How exactly have I been a troll in this thread ?

Also you misstated my views...

love your support .....accurate

Love lake powell. go there...does not provide the type of recreational activities I enjoy....I do think it is a senic lake, to me it is a beautiful lake.

What exactly have I done, besides dissagree with you ?

Why am I a troll ?


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