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Old 07-08-2015   #51
DesertRatonIce's Avatar
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1982
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 217
I think this dude needs a big hug and years of counseling to undo what somebody had done to him.

A hole so big, it sucked the leaves off the tree.
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Old 07-08-2015   #52
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
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Originally Posted by 2kanzam View Post
In my part of the world it is proper river etiquette to not pass mid-rapid and generally give a group REASONABLE space/time to do what they need to do. Is this a common thing out west, expecting someone to stop their run mid-rapid and eddy out?
No, you should wait to pass until you're below rapids. The RR lead guide should've slowed his group so they didn't overtake the OP's group mid-rapid.

That's the only real on-river transgression by RR apparent here. On that particular rapid you really don't want to have a dogpile because a swim can be fatal due to a bad undercut on the right (hence the name "Widow Maker").

On the Ark, on a weekend or holiday, you really have to be aware of your surroundings and understand that commercials naturally move lots faster than private boaters do. When I see a train of rubber buses behind me, I start thinking about where/when to eddy out and let them go by. Though sometimes it can seem like the line never ends....


Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 07-08-2015   #53
Paddling Since: 96
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Originally Posted by shannon s View Post
Phil, so because you eat with them, party with them and get to use their put in, you think I'm lying? I thought with age comes wisdom?
Shannon, I'm saying I know them. I know they are good people, like trust my life with them good people. I know they have nothing but good intention. I know that other commercial's custies are alive because RR does things right in terms of safety boaters and setting safety etc. I know they are a small business supporting families and your kind of attack can impact their well being. I know that others on your trip have contradicted your story. I know that you have reduced yourself to personal attacks on others here in this thread. I know that Browns is so special it draws large crowds. I know I time my paddling there to avoid those crowds. I know that when I'm in there when it is crowded I have my head on a swivel and I do my best to accommodate others, including eddying out to let over taking commercials run through. I know I don't trust your account as gospel, especially when quoting others. Dude. Its Browns Canyon. Its crowded. Its also paradise. Its on you if you cop an attitude.
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Old 07-08-2015   #54
Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 184
OP, you could do like they do down in jmack's neck of the woods and just string a cable across the river! Clean those blasted RiverRunner hippie guides right off their boats....

Seriously, we are a community. respect and get respected. we have way bigger external issues like the above mentioned river cables to deal with that RR GM's phone manners.
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Old 07-08-2015   #55
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Copper Mountain, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 288
Classic mountainbuzz sandbagging all over this thread.

As a former raft guide, risk management was a classroom lesson several times a year. I believe passing a private trip in one of the more crucial Rapids in browns would have some level of negligence attached to it. I rafted on a river that was really only rafted commercially, so the privates were usually geek boats out in front of the trip, but still people that knew what spacing, running order, and staying out of the way were.

My thought is, the choice to not call a hold could have been the first risk taken which leads to a larger accident later on. An accident in this rapid may have consequences not only for the private rafters ahead of the commercial rafts, but also for the paying guests' that don't fully understand the potential hazards of making that move. If people are injured who is the responsible party?(regardless of how badass they are)

I get it though, it is a big cock measuring contest with a tape measure at put in and take out, and I love watching it boil over into mountainbuzz.

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Old 07-08-2015   #56
Thronton, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2009
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Originally Posted by caverdan View Post
The last time I was at Hecla.....I recall.... there was a beach and eddy for private boats just past the big cement ramp.....just saying.
Last time I recall using that eddy there was a sign there saying something to the effect that it was for those not using trailers or for those deflating boats. Something like that. I've used that eddy myself for that purpose, and I've used the ramp many times, at the peak of the rush even. Never had an issue. As others have said, I stay to one side (usually upstream), keep my group tight (will even tie off end to end to keep the group narrow) and unload my gear far away from the commercials doing their thing (or other private boaters for that matter). I don't drink bear, eat lunch or anything else there. I unload, get my trailer, and get out of the way as soon as it is my turn. I help other boaters (including commercials and including River Runners!) and many times have been helped myself.

In terms of the on-river passing, I've had that happen before too. The commercials can come up on you pretty quick, faster than you think sometimes, for a variety of reasons (size of their boats, weight, they are paddling to get to the take out, etc). you need to pay attention and be ready to let them pass. No sense in getting an attitude about it, get over and let them through. Kayakers do that for rafts all the time, no reason smaller rafts and smaller groups can't do the same.

I will also say this. I dump-trucked us once on the Ark at high water, and a commercial trip came through shortly after. They were the only boats to even ask if we were OK. Several private boaters came through and didn't even wave. While we were fine, I appreciated that they gave a shit as they came through.

So trash them now, but who knows when they may actually save your ass one day, will you trash them then? ....
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Old 07-08-2015   #57
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Lyons, Colorado
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Rodney King biatches!

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Old 07-08-2015   #58
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Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
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Originally Posted by deepsouthpaddler View Post
When being passed on the river, appropriate ettiquite is to throw your empty beer cans in their boat. Who doesn't know that shit nowadays?.
I need to brush up on my river etiquette.
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Old 07-08-2015   #59
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: Dawn
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 29
I gotta say, as a somewhat newb private boater that's about to run Brown's for the first time (on the oars), this thread has me less than jazzed. What kind of a dick-measuring contest am I getting into here? Sheeeesh.

Side note - if some one passes you in the rapids floating wrong side up or swimming, instead of calling my boss just please throw me a rope.
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Old 07-08-2015   #60
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Lyons, Colorado
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Originally Posted by pepejohns View Post
I gotta say, as a somewhat newb private boater that's about to run Brown's for the first time (on the oars), this thread has me less than jazzed. What kind of a dick-measuring contest am I getting into here? Sheeeesh.

This D1CK measuring is the best part of boating that and dropping brains!!

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