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Old 07-12-2015   #111
seattle, Washington
Paddling Since: 90
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 355
I've done my share of profit boating and cut out as soon as I could afford a boat. Opie may be thin skinned but has a valid point. Outfitters boat with a huge amount of entitlement. The rules of the ramp,proper spacing and river etiquette apply to you as well. Just cause you're turning a buck does not allow you to give no fucks. Guides should lead by example and unfortunately that is lost on most 20 year olds. hopefully this thread will lead to the rr owner spending more time with his crew.

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Old 07-12-2015   #112
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 727
This is not a widespread problem, at least not here on the Ark, my experience is it is way more common in the PNW.

During the recent high water, we pulled in at the railroad bridge right above Seidel's to take a pause and make sure we were ready. We pulled out from a hidden eddy with limited visibility and were gripped enough that we didn't notice we cut off a 1 boat commercial trip, prob within 30 yds, our second boat saw them and waited until they passed before reentering the current. We dump trucked, I swam, my buddy didn't, and we were both surprised we didn't flip. As we were 'recovering' we were both even more surprised there was another boat right with us. "Where did those guys come from?!" was our reaction. Even though between the two of us we have well over 1,000 trips through Brown's, we both soon realized we had made a rookie mistake. We got to take out and went right over to that commercial boat, apologized and talked it out with them, no hurt feelings, no animosity, no yelling, just another day in screaming high water.

So ya, sometimes we don't all do everything right, but it's more important in how you deal with it. You work through it like humans, you end up with a good experience. You deal with it like assholes, you end up with an experience that leads to a thread like this. Like I said in an earlier post, sometimes shit happens, just deal with it and move on.

A little humility goes a long way.

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Old 07-13-2015   #113
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,372
I'd like to address the apparently mortal transgression of "splitting" the victim's trip. For those playing along at home but without actual experience on Browns at high water, the spot where this happened is not a single definable rapid. Its sort of a series of rooms. You can not see the bottom from the top. In other words, on a crowded weekend, there are often going to be multiple groups in there at the same time. If you are eddied out in there you expect commercials to play through. Expecting a multi boat commercial trip to eddy out in there because you are eddied out in separate eddies is silly. The right thing for them to do is to play through.
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Old 07-13-2015   #114
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 127
Phil, what is Windowmaker? I've been down Brown lots including Saturday but only know the names of the bigger rapids.

I'll say it, Privates are a junk show at Hecla for the most part. I have no idea if it is ignorance or entitlement, but most of them are in the way. Do you let your kids and dogs play in the street? Then why do you let them build sand castles on the boat ramp? The problem is you thought it was quiet when you floated in by 5minutes later two pods of commericials, 60 customers and 2 school buses are in your picnic. This is your issue, not there's. This system has been in place for decades. The buses are backing down and loading whether you like it or not.

The downstream Private Only beach is posh. It looks like they've make it OK to back a trailer down now (verify). Have you ever backed a school bus with a trailer? Pro tip: get well out of the way. You literally can not see directly behind you.

If you need to use the concrete ramp, my suggestion is too use the down stream side. The way the traffic pattern is, the buses like to back down the middle or upstream side of the ramp.

Have a plan to avoid the conflict. It is never good once the conflict happens. IMO, on the boat ramp is never an acceptable place to put your gear. The options are in your boat, in your truck, or off the boat ramp.

As our rivers get busier and busier, collectively we need to figure out some protocol for the ramps. I think it has less to do with who is and isn't a dick and more to do with expectations of how we all should behave. Some people honestly think that it's totally cool to back two vehicles down the middle of the ramp and take half an hour to change, de-rig, load up while mom makes PB&Js, Dad crushes a Dales and Fido pisses on my drytop. Others think that if you take more than 3 minutes on the ramp you are doing it wrong.
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Old 07-13-2015   #115
Salida, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1986
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 727
While rules of thumb and suggestions are great, you have to make use of the boat ramp according to the conditions when you land. Again, this is not a huge issue from my observations and experiences. Remember people can be very cold when they arrive at Hecla, and are useless to help de rig until they can get changed. You can put your stuff on the ramp IN FRONT of your boat, just don't increase your footprint and take up space to the sides. Bad dog owners can't be reasoned with, so don't sweat it. If the dog pisses on your gear, well I suppose there are lots of ways to deal with that, including a quick rinse in the river. I have yet to see that one tho, and besides, it won't make the smell any worse on commercial guide clothing!

I also find most of the junk shows are the weekend warriors (most likely front rangers, hate to generalize like that, but it is what it is) who just don't have the time and experience on that particular ramp to understand how to make it work. Half the locals I run with worked Brown's for a decade or so on average, the other half are at least being trained on boat ramp etiquette by those of us who've been there.

Sorry Jamie, but the entitlement attitude of commercials like you express does not help the situation. Commercial guides have enough manpower to load boats while their custies get comfortable. Privates need a few minutes to coagulate their excrement, that is just a simple fact and a little patience and empathy on that go a long way in keeping a good attitude and a peaceful boat ramp.

One group can fill that 'private only' ramp, so again, not really very useful in the big picture.
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Old 07-13-2015   #116
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,372
Jamie, its below Staircase.
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Old 07-14-2015   #117
Total newbie
Arvada, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 53
This thread provided a lot of insight regarding ramps and crowds and issues the boating community deal with.

The biggest lesson I'm taking away is: Try your hardest to run the river with respect and consideration but don't get too upset if chaos intervenes because it's a fast and fluid adventure and things happen. No need to complain for most things...
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Old 07-14-2015   #118
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2007
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 54
Originally Posted by DoStep View Post
a few minutes to coagulate their excrement

Hahaha, I'm going to remember that one!!!!
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Old 07-14-2015   #119
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
The entire thread reminds me of a conversation I overheard at the airport last week;

Ticket Counter Lady "I'm sorry but you're checking in beyond the 30 minute cutoff, so I can't check you in for your flight"
Passenger "No, but you can. You must. I MUST make this flight; it's your fault, the line was too long; just give me the damn boarding pass!"
Ticket Counter Lady (Looking at empty lobby and no lines anywhere)"No, you don't understand; I can't check you in; the computer won't let me do it. I can book you on tomorrow's flight. Do you want to pay the change fee with credit or cash?"
IRATE Passenger; Neither; give me the fucking boarding pass or I kick your ass!"
Ticket counter lady (picking up phone) "Security please, to the ticket counter"
IRATE passenger to cops "She REFUSED to check me in! I was here on time! I never threatened her! Now I will miss my flight!"
Cop; "Turn around and Put your hands behind your back"

The point being, conduct yourself so as to avoid conflict, but when it is unavoidable, remain calm.
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Old 07-14-2015   #120
San Jose, CA, California
Paddling Since: 1998
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 430
My favorite time to launch on browns canyon during commercial season 3PM to sunset.

No drama unless you run into OP.

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