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Old 05-02-2015   #11
Grand Junction, Colorado
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 434
I've always allowed everyone on my permits to bring a friend. When your guests are happy, you'll be happier and you'll meet new people. This will generally make a better trip as long as you make expectations clear. Sorry, but this guy sounds like a jerk.

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Old 05-03-2015   #12
Stiff N' Wett's Avatar
Evergreen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2003
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 446
I think that's asking to much. Hell I'd love to take my whole family down the middle fork but I know that wouldn't ever happen unless it was a commercial trip. If your going to be doing all the work with your expensive gear you should get an expense free trip. I'm a cheap ass so that would change my attitude.

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Old 05-03-2015   #13
Bellvue, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2006
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 117
Id say stop being a selfish dick, and go enjoy the river. Or you could take your ball and go play by yourself.

Besides, he might have a hot sister or something.
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Old 05-03-2015   #14
cataraftgirl's Avatar
Sandy, Utah
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,120
Originally Posted by GPP33 View Post
Just tell it to him like it is. Sounds like you appreciate the invite and will be willing to help with his family but you'd feel more comfortable with some more experience on the river with you. I don't think that's unreasonable. He needs to know you're not liking feeling used. If he's a good friend he'll understand.
This sounds like the perfect response to me. Not selfish whining, but an honest assessment of how you feel and what your concerns are.

Originally Posted by Spaceghost View Post
Id say stop being a selfish dick, and go enjoy the river. Or you could take your ball and go play by yourself.

Besides, he might have a hot sister or something.
If you started this thread to ask the question, then it's obviously bugging you. You're not being selfish. Express your concerns to the TL and see how he responds. If you think that his requirements will have a negative impact on your enjoyment of the trip, or possibly ruin your friendship with him, then maybe you should pass on the trip. If you do choose to go, then go into it with a good attitude and do your best to make it turn out well. At least you will have all the information up front with which to make your decision. Sometimes you don't find out the "real scoop" until you're at the put-in with the TL's family & their gear sitting in front of your boat.
"We are all visitors to this time, this place. We are just passing through. Our purpose here is to observe, to learn, to grow, to love....and then we return home."
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Old 05-03-2015   #15
Andy H.'s Avatar
Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Lots of good responses here and you can see the trend. Just about any time I invite someone who's bringing a raft, they automatically get a permit spot to bring a friend. In this case you're bringing your raft and gear for his raft- and gear-deficient trip and you can't even bring a friend with another raft and gear help support the trip?

If the TL thinks it's worth turning down another raft to keep the group size under some arbitrary number he'll think twice when y'all are scraping down or missing eddies with over loaded rafts. This, of course, assumes your buddy with the raft is acceptable for a family trip and won't throw the group dynamic into a tizzy.

I concur with the overwhelming response you're getting and with cataraftgirl: at least you know up front what you're getting into (and can politely decline now if you want).

Because this truly stinks:

Sometimes you don't find out the "real scoop" until you're at the put-in with the TL's family & their gear sitting in front of your boat.
Good luck with the decision, and remember if you turn down the trip, there'll be other opportunities. Hell, you and your buddy can probably do a nice float from Grand Junction to Moab (or something comparable) with that week and have no trouble getting on someones's Westwater permit where you won't even have to play babysitter and pack mule.

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 05-03-2015   #16
shappattack's Avatar
Up North, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,147
It doesn't say the TL is your actual "friend" in the original post. Is it the guy that was trolling on MB for someone to take their group with no boats or experience down the MF in July?

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Old 05-04-2015   #17
Whitewater Repairs's Avatar
Sheridan, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 23
Agreed, commercial guides are paid for a reason. Yes it's fun but a lot of responsibility goes along with it. You're being asked to supply your own gear and guide a trip, for the experience of seeing the MF. I'd pass as well, only way it's worth your while is if you can bring at least one of your drinking buddies with you.
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Old 05-04-2015   #18
Jenks, Oklahoma
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,407
One. Bail on this trip, hopefully you will get another invite from a buzzard. If not get in the lottery for your own MFS permit.

Two. Find another friend, from reading this post this guy is using you as a commercial trip guide, not as a friend to share a trip with. Most of the PH's I know will allow a person rowing their raft on a trip to bring at least one person of their choice.
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Old 05-04-2015   #19
pocatello, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 471
I drew a MFS permit last year and wanted to take my family. This included my 8 year old daughter, ex wife, 3 brothers and dad.

Only 1 brother had any experience to speak of.

So I took one other brother out boating and let him row a bunch of day stretches. The other was far away but was reasonably competent. They split duties on a lightly loaded cat.

My ex and kid rode with me off the top. I took the lion's share of the group gear. Lovely time still.

My dad started with a competent friend whose husband later flew in. Then I flew my passengers out and swapped in my dad.

The other brother went in a ducky. Pretty much self sufficient.

I also wanted to take another friend with no experience. It just happened that an old buddy moved back to town and was not working yet and looking for an adventure. I set him up with a boat and put my friend in with him. He did not get to invite a friend. But he used all of my gear and would not have been able to go otherwise.

I was super clear to my family that they were to help as much as possible. We divided up the chores in a big chart and everyone had clear responsibilities so the experienced boaters were not pseudo guiding.

It doesn't sound like your TL is being quite so flexible or creative.

I've done the pseudo guide thing before to get on a river. I'm over it. There are always other permits and trips. I'd rather run day stretches on the Payette with friends than baby a group of newbs for 7 days.

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Old 05-04-2015   #20
trevko's Avatar
Fort Fun, Colorado
Paddling Since: 94
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 117
I would agree with the overall trend of the responses. It sounds like you are getting set up as a pseudo guide and if you go into the trip with that resentment the group dynamics could go to shit, with you being the odd man out and made the scapegoat.

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