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Old 08-18-2016   #11
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
Not kidding. The core in the show was that the river had been "over allocated".
Global warming ................. sorry, climate change was barely mentioned.
But, a couple of good things Schutzie learned; Glen Canyon may be uncovered in my life time!

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Old 08-18-2016   #12
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
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Well yes, pumping from the bottom of the dam makes a lot of sense, but then that doesn't fill up the Dolores, which is the goal in Schutzies world.
Just sayin ..........

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Old 08-18-2016   #13
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
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Well, that was my thought, but the Swedes, they swear it works and is cost efficient and all that. Wish I could find the darn article again.
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Old 08-18-2016   #14
Join Date: Feb 2005
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Here you go, just for fun.

Rich Phillips
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Old 08-19-2016   #15
LongmontRafter's Avatar
Longmont, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Jun 2008
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I think one importance piece of info that was missing from the documentary is what the farmers pay for their water relative to the rest of us. The documentary portrayed the "poor farmer" struggling to cope with additional costs imposed by neighboring urban centers (San Diego) when the price of water the farmer pays is so much less than what the city pays...Seems to me the onus of conservation should be on the highest consumption users...
ManGearPig Lives!
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Old 08-19-2016   #16
Redmond, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1973
Join Date: Jan 2013
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Originally Posted by Schutzie View Post
Schutzie watched the show and was disappointed. The message (don't store water in the desert) didn't offer much in the way of real world solutions.

Ironically, Schutzie became intimately familiar with a Swedish solution to limited water resource and demands on hydro power;
As it turns out, hydro dams are most efficient when they are run at full capacity, continuously. The problem of course is that running at full capacity requires a lot more water than is generally available.
The Swedes figured out a solution that is counter intuitive; in fact, Schutzie called a hearty BS when he first heard it.

Anyway, the solution is to pump the water back up, into the reservoir.
We do that too.

This is a little dated:

"Pumped storage hydroelectric projects have been providing energy storage capacity and transmission grid ancillary benefits in the United States (U.S.) and Europe since the 1920s.
In the U.S., the existing 38 pumped hydroelectric facilities can store just over 2 percent of the country’s electrical generating capacity. That share is small compared with Europe’s (nearly 5%) and Japan’s (about 10%). But the industry plans to build reservoirs close to existing power plants. Enough projects are being considered to double capacity. (Scientific American 2012)"
Pumped Hydroelectric Storage | Energy Storage Association

A classic is using nuclear power to pump the water back up at night. Low use time and nuclear is available in Cal. Then Hydro is run during high use and therefore high priced times.
This can also be filed under capitalism.
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Old 08-19-2016   #17
Redmond, Oregon
Paddling Since: 1973
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,031
The best trick is to not use rivers for this at all.

One lake to another.

Another desirable feature here is:
"pump-generators which serve a dual role as both pumps which can reverse into generators. "

Down side of course is current nuclear technology.
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Old 08-20-2016   #18
Salt Lake City, Utah
Paddling Since: 2008
Join Date: Mar 2010
Posts: 338
I just finished the documentary. It took me two days because I fell asleep. Kind of dry, but what do you expect from a water documentary. I felt like I was watching it for the second Time because it reminded me a lot of the book Cadillac desert. Which is a great book and much better than this documentary
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Old 08-21-2016   #19
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Boulder, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,727
I don't know what percent is lost to inefficiency in a pump back loop, but the profit is in working the peak time
Rates. There is a small hydro plant in Boulder that pumps water into the top at the off hours, low rate structure, then runs the generators at peak.

Must be close to zero water consumption, and whatever energy is lost to friction, is more than compensated by the difference in peak rate prices.

Of course if you wanted to you could take the excess money earned and spend it to run a play park or whitewater feature, instead of turning a profit, but that would be a tough sell for most capitalists....

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