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Old 11-10-2014   #21
Droboat's Avatar
Wild Wild West, Colorado
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 214
The prescribed remedy is a Silkwood Shower?

Hilarious if it weren't so consistent with tactics used by threatened and dying regimes throughout history.

Also very handy for Utah Barney Fifes looking for an excuse to search out-of-state boaters.

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Old 11-10-2014   #22
Wondervu, CO, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2001
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 390
I outlined the clean at river vs clean at home scenario in our conversation. She saw no problem with cleaning the boat at the take-out, the sticky point is when you need to sign the 'self clean' affidavit and say that your boat had 7 days to dry. The 'professional clean' option was offered as a solution to those who couldn't wait.

I also asked about driving to the nearest town and running the boat through a car wash, she did not see that washing the boat at another location would increase the risk spreading contamination as long as the runoff was not going directly into a waterway.

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Old 11-11-2014   #23
caverdan's Avatar
C. Springs, Colorado
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,443
Thanks Kengore for looking into this situation and talking to people.

I must say that I have yet to have a bad experience with any of the agency people or decon procedures at the borders or lake put in's I have been to. (Wyoming has check points at the borders) They have been very helpful, friendly, and I have never had the feeling they were out to get me. (We visit a lot of lakes with our power boat ). The decon procedure goes fast too. It takes between 5 and 10 minutes to hook up to the engine and flood the compartments with hot water. They either dunk your ropes and anchor in hot water or run hot water over them. From a power boat perspective and lake user, the system is very painless and seamless to follow without much inconvenience.

That said.....I don't think this new law........ will be will be as easy to implement or enforce as they think........ when it comes to the White Water Community.

If you look at the MOU, they are going to be setting these stations up at the borders and have the facilities to decon there. That's where you will get your certificate stating you are clean and ready to go. Colorado has it's check points at the lake put in's, so no worries there. In other words, I don't see CDOT stopping to check people coming into the state. It's not real clear to me in the MOU, that they are going to be stopping people leaving the state with boats. Wyoming checks you both ways so they might too.

Here is the last line of the MOU

( Inspection stations shall be operated in a manner that minimizes the length of time of an inspection while ensuring that conveyances are free from the presence of Dreissena mussels.

So there I sit with 10 inflatables on a trailer, rolled and packaged for transport. I stop so they can inspect me as I head into their state. The inspectors are very friendly and full of information as usual. I tell them the boats have not been in the water in the past 30 days. I came over the passes in a snow storm. I stopped in Rifle to wash the Cal mag off. Every things wet when I show up at the border. Do they believe me that the boat have not been in water or decon me? Certify the boats and send me to the put in with all the paperwork I need to launch? If there is a chance of decon....I need to re plan my trip and give myself the time to have them do it. As you can tell, I'm more worried about getting on the river than getting home from it.

As far as going home and leaving state..... If they are willing to help me wash my boats at their decon station.....I can plan around that. After a big trip and a week with a group of High School students, I'm not afraid to roll my boats up dirty and clean them at home. If there is a place to clean them along the way, and help to do it...heck yea...they don't know what they are going to get themselves into. The question is.....How will they minimize my time at the inspection station. Hopefully I can sign something that I will do it at home and that will be that.

Getting on the river is always the hard part with lots of hoops. These inspection stations will not be open 24-7. For me....getting home will be much easier.
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Old 11-11-2014   #24
Golden, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 321
Ugh, what a mess. With all due respect to those who work in the DOW, this just looks like a lot of bureaucratic wrangling for a prevention program that has so far been ineffective. Zebras and quaggas have been spreading for decades, despite these programs. I'm not convinced these programs are going to be any more effective by dragging kayakers, canoers, rafters or even tubers into an unworkable system of checkpoints and certified decontamination systems. This whole "containment" strategy is flawed because it is impossible to create and maintain a quarantine on an entire river basin. The quaggas are still going to find plenty of environmental vectors to carry them throughout these river basins. It's just like Ebola. You can't fix it with a quarantine. You have to treat the disease itself to contain the outbreak. I would much rather see money go to researching whatever pestilence they can engineer to wipe out the zebras or quaggas. It worked on the tammies, and this is no different.

As for me, I'm willing to clean my boats to help stop the spread, but I'm not willing to drive 600 miles all over a state looking for some signature on a form on a monday between the hours of 8-5, nor am I willing to take a 30 day timeout every time one of my boats hits the water. That kind of bullshit is just going to piss people off and make them uncooperative.
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Old 11-11-2014   #25
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,930
I get the worry and concern. One thing to clarify, 30 days is only during the winter or if you don't get it professionally decontaminated. Most of the boating season (unless you like fringe season multi-days like me) is 7 days. It also all depends on how many different rivers you boat on as to the measures. I haven't read the Colorado law but its possible you don't have to decontaminate while visiting in-state rivers (that is the case for most of the rivers in Utah if I just stay here). And then I don't even need to decontaminate unless I visit certain rivers (even though at this point its likely I will air dry my rig 7 days after every trip).

This is vastly different than the tamarisk bio-control attempts (and I have seen tamarisks rebudding in roadless corridors already, like the lower sections of Deso). The tamarisk beetle was cheap investment, is a passive biocontrol and didn't need to kill an extremely high percentage of the tamarisks to be deemed successful. The tamarisk only produce a couple thousands seeds per bush but a single female quagga produces upwards of one million eggs, a 200 to 1000-fold difference in scale. Finding a biocontrol or chemical to wipeout an organism that has the ability to reproduce a million juveniles (in some places multiple times a year) is one of the hardest concepts around. Even the successful programs in the midwest seem to require multiple year or even continuous treatment. If even 5% of the veligers survive then you have a strong chance of population survival, though it definitely slows them down. I think my managers and biologist would love to find a control technique but we are not likely to have any large scale success with that any time soon, especially considering how uncertain long term effects of both biocontrols and chemicals have on the ecosystems we introduce them into. And then how do you afford to introduce them into places like Powell, Mead, or the Great Lakes with any success? And even then the reality is we have to quarantine affected rivers in concert with those actions. As I understand it the best we can hope to do is limit the rate of spread to reservoirs, quarantine and hope the quaggas don't establish massive populations in our rivers. As of now the only river sections affected in the West are two sections of the Colorado River below dams, the rest are reservoirs.

Considering quaggas have been in Colorado since at least 2008 I would say the quarantine has done pretty well and reducing the rate of spread. I mean in 6 years only a handful of reservoirs have been affected in that state (according to the USGS maps). And I would guess that is largely due to education which is the principle purpose of check stations and certificates. A few million spent on these programs to slow what quickly turns into hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in treatment, infrastructure and business loss seems like a fair investment to me. At this point its pennies on the dollars every year we stall their full potential.

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Old 11-12-2014   #26
Droboat's Avatar
Wild Wild West, Colorado
Join Date: May 2008
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"At this point its pennies on the dollars" Bullshit is called!

How about some data on mussel spending in the Colorado basin to back up the obsequious conclusion that Wrecked is doing good things by delaying the inevitable end of the Colorado dams regime? My guess is that Wrecked and the states are spending plenty to delay the inevitable and beneficial end of the Colorado River dams era. My guess is that accounting will show negative returns on mussel spending.

A good start would involve real numbers on mussel spending on the Colorado and then add in the various costs to individuals and businesses. The accounting needs to recognize that any beneficial return on investment is limited to a couple year delay in a mussel invasion that is accelerating the inevitable end to the Colorado River Storage Project madness.

Last, figure in the increased costs of demolition caused by delaying the inevitable dam removal.
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Old 11-12-2014   #27
cedar city, Utah
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,930
I fear you are trolling us from the type of odd language you use and the fact you don't disclose your name and location. That said even a peripheral effort to research shows:

U.S. Congressional researchers estimated that an infestation of the closely-related zebra mussel in the Great Lakes area cost the power industry $3.1 billion in the 1993-1999 period, with an economic impact to industries, businesses, and communities of more than $5 billion.
Colorado State Parks operates roughly a $4 million dollar budget on the issue but I think that includes multiple invasive aquatic species. They would be the primary agency in Colorado. Lake Powell currently operates a $750,000 budget for both zebra and quaggas.

...hence, pennies on the dollar conclusion. Those billions of dollars in cleaning and restoration of power plants are passed onto citizens and consumers.

I get you are against dams in the West. You insert that obvious position into multiple threads on the Buzz. Best of luck with that. Considering its not inherently relevant to the ecological or economic situation I don't engage or research the #s you demand as far as removal and restoration without them. Staging your platform the way you have is equivalent to accepting and applauding global warming because you don't like modern beach front property. And while I hate dam and support thoughtful removal I am also interested in addressing the ecological nightmares we create in the interim.

In general the onus is on those with contrary opinions to provide significant evidence when science and policy is well established on an issue. In this case ecology, economics and recreational experience is pretty clear cut that quagga mussels are devastating. As well, mussels have been established in the midwest for decades and it clearly shows that they maintain their dams while we lose recreational access and irreparably damage massive ecosystems.

I applaud you starting a separate thread instead of constantly thread jacking existing ones. I won't be able to respond for a week as I will be out on a hunting and fishing trip.

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Old 11-12-2014   #28
Droboat's Avatar
Wild Wild West, Colorado
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 214
The opinion, stated as fact, was yours. I called bullshit.

Look forward to some support for your assertion that mussel control on the Colorado generates a massive return on what you now admit are actually billions of pennies.
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Old 11-12-2014   #29
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Wheat Ridge, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 2,909
Frankly, I kind of like the idea of spending some money preventing beaches and rocks in the Colorado River from getting covered with billions of tiny razor blades, and think it's a worthwhile, if costly, endeavor.

Nothing in the world is more yielding and gentle than water. Yet it has no equal for conquering the resistant and tough. The flexible can overcome the unbending; the soft can overcome the hard. - Lao Tse
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Old 11-12-2014   #30
Wondervu, CO, Colorado
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Me too Andy!

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