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Old 12-09-2013   #51
Westminster, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2010
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 286
Originally Posted by The Kooz View Post
This incident is proof we still have more educating to do. I truly feel for all those involved. But there was a failure of the group that day. I don't know to what degree each of the factors Tom brought up actually contributed, but - unless Tom is COMPLETELY offbase - I am certain that those factors cascaded into tragedy. And all of those factors were entirely preventable. Yes there is risk in this sport, but they weren't running a VI+ drop. There is no excusable reason for someone perishing from a swim at that location. I'm not saying that to be cruel - i'm saying that as a very experienced boater. If someone enters the water, and dies as a result, that is a failure of the group. It's that simple.

And no, the Buzz shouldn't be used to process this tragedy. But that's not what Tom was doing. Certainly Tom doesn't have the entire story, but that doesn't mean his write up has no merit. If second hand incident reports had no merit, AW's incident library would look pretty meager. What he was presenting a learning opportunity. Maybe Tom has some ulterior motive here i'm not aware of. but as someone who knows no one involved in this thread, I find the dispute here clearly runs deeper than just this writeup. The write up has basic points, and shows how incidents escalate and risk factors compound quickly. These are basic concepts i find 50% of boaters don't understand. The whole "bad things happen" attitude is just pure ignorance, and i see this as a great example of how quickly things turn deadly.

All that i care about is preventing this sort of incident in the future. So unless the "unknown information" that is being eluded to somehow completely contradicts Tom's write up, there is merit there. Of course there is some error here, but the fundamental points are valuable.
Wow, I think your mislead here a bit. Blaming the entire group for this accident? Cumulative events caused it? That's BS. From what little info is in the report it sounds like a normal GC trip up until the tragedy. People bailing, mud, flips, yeah normal. If you want to learn something from this incident, just remember that when you have a severe illness, you are taking a risk doing anything outside in the elements. For some this risk vs reward is worth it. For others it is not. You have to make that decision for yourself and make sure your team is okay with your choice as well.

I have lost respect for Tom as others have respectfully asked for his patience on this matter but he continues to slam how he's doing the right thing down everyone's throats. Sure others have said they learned something and Tom put in his plug for the rescue rung. It is likely in this scenario the rescue rung would be worthless. You still need to be able to use the rescue ladder to get yourself back in the boat. The best way to get someone back into a raft is to grab them by their PFD and pull them into the raft.

I would rather wait a year for Charlie Walbridge to put up an official AW report that may or may not be the same. But, we will know that he did his homework and relayed the actual happenings the best he can. Otherwise you get fingerpointing from idiots like The Kooz.

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Old 12-09-2013   #52
cataraftgirl's Avatar
Sandy, Utah
Paddling Since: 1997
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 3,120
Originally Posted by The Kooz View Post
If someone enters the water, and dies as a result, that is a failure of the group. It's that simple.

All that i care about is preventing this sort of incident in the future.
It's not that simple. Bad stuff does happen on rivers, and thinking that you have total control over the outcome is pure arrogance. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be prepared, it just means that you shouldn't assume that your preparation will save your life or someone else's 100% of the time. Not everything in life can be prevented or fixed. It's not ignorance, it's reality. A reality that some folks must unfortunately deal with after a tragedy happens.

As for preventing this sort of incident in the about posting some sage advice instead of stating that a person died because her group failed her. That would be more helpful and less mean spirited.

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Old 12-09-2013   #53
Dipshit with the most.
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Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,496
Locking this thread pending review from the moderation team.

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