Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-26-2013   #21
craven_morhead's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2004
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 747
Send a message via AIM to craven_morhead
Eric, I have said this before, but I am an attorney with a litigation background and would be happy to provide a critical review of your book from a third party perspective. I'm not real interested in paying for that privilege though.

craven_morhead is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-26-2013   #22
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Eric,

You continue to assert that the Supreme Court rulings on river access are self-evident in their applicability and impact, and that various public agencies are operating improperly -- outside what you say is established law.

If that's the case, why has no other major organization relied on your cases? Why has no litigation ever prevailed by using any of them? For that matter, why has no other major organization joined you in your crusade, and provided funding to take an offending agency to court, using principles that you say are so concretely embedded in law?

You may be involved in a noble endeavor. You may have been crusading valiantly for decades against immense odds. You may be pursuing a useful public information campaign.

But you also may have misjudged the Buzz as a vehicle for advancing your cause. Yes, it's irreverent and rowdy. But folks here are not uninformed or short on critical thinking skills. By not responding directly to a number of honestly-posed questions, and by not crisply (and in useful detail) explaining the tax status of your organization, you may have lost any momentum and credibility you initially had.

I wish you well in your goal of amplifying public knowledge about river issues. But until you've recalibrated a bit, you may be limited in what you can achieve.


Rich Phillips

richp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013   #23
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 31
Replies to the above:

Lawyers interested in reviewing Public Rights on Rivers can call NOR at 719.579.8759 to discuss that possibility. Regarding NOR tax status, we’ll announce here when it has been updated.

Regarding “crusading valiantly for decades,” NOR has published news articles about river issues in the past, but Public Rights on Rivers is only two months old. People who are interested in understanding river law should read it. People who would rather let someone else figure out these matters don’t need to bother reading it.

Regarding “why no litigation has ever prevailed” using the Supreme Court decisions cited in NOR materials, the litigation that prevailed was the Supreme Court decisions themselves. If you are referring to the Grand Canyon situation, to date there has not been any litigation citing those decisions or the legal principles discussed in Public Rights on Rivers. The Wilderness Public Rights Fund case in the 1970s, and the River Runners for Wilderness case in the 2000s, both claimed that the National Park Service has to either do an expensive study of public demand and adjust allocations accordingly, or convert to a system of no allocations. As I explained earlier, the law does not require either of those things, although it does require the Park Service to regularly release vacant commercial space to waiting noncommercial applicants.

Regarding why no other organization has joined this “crusade,” the primary reason for believing river law as explained in Public Rights on Rivers is because you can verify it for yourself. The facts and law are fully cited. Other organizations have indeed published brief materials about river law, but with few citations and numerous incorrect statements. If you compare those materials side by side with NOR materials, you can see for yourself which legal views are valid. There’s no rocket science involved.

Regarding why no organization has “provided funding to take an offending agency to court,” the principles of river law do not need to be re-litigated river by river, although if you are referring to the Grand Canyon situation, noncommercial applicants do need to work through their Congressman’s local staff to reserve the space on the river to which they are lawfully entitled.

Regarding “recalibrating” NOR efforts to educate river users about river law, we are indeed looking for ways to do so more effectively. On the other hand, it is already clear that we can't reach everybody. Some river users are willing to read about these things and think for themselves, while others are waiting for “major organizations” and government agencies to tell them what their rights are. To a large degree, we can help the former, but not the latter. – Eric Leaper.
eric.leaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013   #24
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Eric,

Your entire post above boils down to, "What I say is self-evidently true, and the truth should prevail, despite reality."

As I said earlier, the folks here on the Buzz are a bit more sophisticated than you apparently give them credit for. You're getting nowhere faster than you ever could possibly imagine.


Rich Phillips
richp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-06-2013   #25
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 31

No, I am not saying that NOR materials are self-evidently true, but rather that those river users who are interested in understanding their legal rights on rivers can compare Public Rights on Rivers (which is very detailed and is supported by numerous citations) to whatever else is available on the subject, and draw their own conclusions. -- Eric Leaper.
eric.leaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013   #26
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Eric,

Now you're back to a much more modest claim. Instead of (paraphasing) my stuff will assure a win in important cases, it's (paraphasing again) read my stuff and be better informed.

But it still gets back to the real world, where (in today's America) those asserted rights have to be vindicated in court. Just handing the ranger a copy of your book is not going to be enough.

Which takes us right back to the start. River access cases are coming up all the time -- the CRMP litigation is just one of many. The cases you cite have been readily available to lawyers for years. If they provide such a clear path to legal victory, why haven't others relied on them?

Just asking...

Rich Phillips
richp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013   #27
Colorado Springs, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1968
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 31
Reply to the above:

We have been saying all along that Public Rights on Rivers is something for river users to read and evaluate for themselves, side by side with whatever else they find on the subject.

Regarding your view that in the real world, public rights have to be vindicated in court, most litigation nationwide gets settled out of court. Past disputes about public rights on rivers have indeed been settled without a judge’s decision, using earlier versions of NOR materials among other things. You are correct that just handing a ranger a copy of Public Rights on Rivers is not enough. Dialog at higher levels is necessary. – Eric Leaper.
eric.leaper is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013   #28
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 883
Hi Eric,

Perhaps you could provide us with a detailed list of the cases in which your expert witness testimony and your legal theories (it's OK if they were "using earlier versions of NOR materials") have been the deciding factor in a court decision that increased private boater access.

Actually, you could start with a CV that goes beyond the generalities on your web site. The kinds of details a lawyer would get into the record when they were putting you on the stand, in order to qualify you as an expert.

And as to the cases you've helped sway, I'm thinking about you providing something concrete that the lawyers here could dig into and analyze. Without having to join your organization or pay for your book, of course.

Just asking...

Once again, I want to emphasize that I'm not challenging you because of your views -- I fully support effective strategies to increase access in a responsible way. I'm simply trying to highlight something that surely is obvious to most folks who have stuck with this thread. You've been asked repeatedly for specific information and to provide this book to someone qualified to review it, and you've repeatedly ducked and dodged. And you keep pushing the book and your organization instead of responding to folks who are earnestly seeking information -- folks who likely would help you if they were convinced you were on the right track. None of your evasion and misdirection helps your cause one bit.

Rich Phillips
richp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013   #29
RiverMamma's Avatar
ebbing, flowing..., CO, NM
Paddling Since: 1985
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 239
Ok, so I didn't read the thread, I did read the OP though. It was elegant & makes me feel so incredibly grateful to know that you guys were all out there rooting for us! I am the trip leader of the very first trip to get turned away at that damn blockade the morning of Oct. 1st... I spent almost a week there in "The Dirt Eddy" trying to make something happen. Of course we did not get to put on, along with dozens of other trips.

I do want to say though that as much as we ALL hate every one of those self absorbed, pretentious, childish, douche bags in Washington, I have nothing but the best things to say about NPS & the Lees Ferry rangers. First of all, the head River Ranger Brian Blume and the Deputy Superintendent Diane Chalfant drove 4 hours just to come address us and tell us that they would Try to make it right by us, but with everything shut down still they didn't know how. Second of all, when the park did re-open they did something far beyond what I would have imagined (I was expecting, like extra lottery points or something.) They let us PICK A DATE, any date between re-opening & 2016. They also reimbursed us all park fees. WOW. They Did do their best to make it right!

I also want to say that I heard allot of flack towards rangers during the shutdown, and yeah, I might have been one of those Abbey's that would have happily lost my job to smuggle people on the water, but I also Love my job & can understand not wanting to loose it. These guys Love their jobs, they are Rangers because they love wild places & boating too & they love helping other people get on the water. They were essentially blackmailed during the shutdown, they were told to show up & do what was not a part of their job description, while not getting paid, or they would not have a job to come back to. Pretty f'd up, no? I spent allot of time hanging out with the rangers that week & got to know them really well, they don't deserve the slander! The reality of the situation is that our government is broken, and nothing is going to change until it collapses and is forced to re-invent it's self. As much as I would like to approach this problem from a localized place, it's problem is at the root, not the blossom...

Ok, I'm done ranting. Thank you again to every one of you who wrote letters, made phone calls, sent e-mails, shared articles, held space for those of us getting hosed- sent energy in the right direction, any and all of it. Thank You.

If anyone is interested, here is an article I wrote about it...
Journeys of a River Mamma Blog "Ever onward, ever forward, ever down the River!"- Ed Abbey
RiverMamma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-07-2013   #30
salida, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 283
so back on topic...

Eric why are you dodging the question about providing your book to some of the lawyers on the buzz?

psu96 is offline   Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off

Similar Threads
Topic Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Deer Creek Narrows Closure in Grand Canyon Curtiso Whitewater Kayaking 7 06-22-2012 10:34 PM
Clear Creek Canyon partial closure deepsouthpaddler Whitewater Kayaking 1 05-11-2009 04:50 PM
Gore Canyon Access Road Closure riverbunnyak Whitewater Kayaking 0 08-28-2006 02:13 PM
Clear Creek Canyon road closure mikehs Whitewater Kayaking 23 06-29-2005 02:46 PM

» Classified Ads
Gott - Rubbermaid coolers

posted by stony2275

I have 3 Gott Rubbermaid coolers for sale. 60 Quart in...

men's Mountain Hardwear...

posted by marilyn anderson

men's Mountain Hardwear grey gortex ski jacket/ size...

Hala Atcha 86 w stompbox

posted by Rendezvous River Sports

hala atcha is a great whitewater sup

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

Our Communities

Our communities encompass many different hobbies and interests, but each one is built on friendly, intelligent membership.

» More about our Communities

Automotive Communities

Our Automotive communities encompass many different makes and models. From U.S. domestics to European Saloons.

» More about our Automotive Communities

Marine Communities

Our Marine websites focus on Cruising and Sailing Vessels, including forums and the largest cruising Wiki project on the web today.

» More about our Marine Communities

Copyright 2002-2012 Social Knowledge, LLC All Rights Reserved.

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:33 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2016, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.