Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-03-2016   #1
 
The Mogur's Avatar
 
Oregon City, Oregon
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Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries

There were 260 other first choice applications in the 4 Rivers Lottery for the river and date I applied for. Four permits were issued to the lottery winners for that date. Two of those permits were put up for grabs during the last ten days before the launch date--too late for most people to take advantage of. One of the permit-holders was a no-show.

So I extend my personal THANKS A LOT to you three rectal orifices.

The fact that 3/4 of the lottery winners were flakes is not unusual. In fact it is typical of river permit lotteries everywhere (except Grand Canyon, which I will explain below). What it means is that a majority of those applying for permits in the lottery aren't really serious about going down the river. The result is that they greatly increase the odds against the rest of us getting a permit, and effectively shut us out.

The main beneficiaries appear to be off-duty local guides who can claim a last-minute permit, and head for the river for a boatman's holiday.

Is there a way to prevent frivolous permit applications? That's where we should look at the Grand Canyon lottery: $25 lottery entry fee, plus a $400 non-refundable deposit for lottery winners. And THAT is why there are relatively few no-shows and late cancellations in Grand Canyon.

There has to be something to lose, and it has to be enough to hurt. Until that happens, irresponsible flakes will continue to dominate the permit lotteries, while the rest of us scramble to catch a permit from the cancellation pool and simultaneously make Plan B arrangements for one of the non-permit rivers, which are becoming fewer every year.

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Old 08-03-2016   #2
 
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Bazzaro, World
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Mogur,

I'm with you and I too have similar stories, I just don't know how to proceed. There is interest in this topic and many of us would contribute to a go fund me to raise $$ for the cause or donate the money to American Whitewater if it falls through.

We need a champion for this issue, I just don't have the tools or skill set to manage such a project. I'd don't know where to start but I would pull if I knew what direction.
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Old 08-03-2016   #3
 
Evereywhere, State of Bliss
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stats

Where are you finding the cancellation stats? I'm unaware of where to look. Would like to find out if everyone bailed on my September date. One can only hope to get the MFS to themselves.
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Old 08-03-2016   #4
 
cedar city, Utah
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Deso has become the latest victim. Something needs to change.
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Old 08-03-2016   #5
 
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Originally Posted by tteton View Post
Where are you finding the cancellation stats? I'm unaware of where to look. Would like to find out if everyone bailed on my September date. One can only hope to get the MFS to themselves.
Rec.gov MFS premits

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Old 08-03-2016   #6
 
Eastside, Washington
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My two cents: You don't need to up the entry fee. But you do need to create an incentive to show up or cancel (early).

How about you put down some level of a $100-400 deposit. Get it all back if you show up. Get 90% back if you cancel a month in advance. Get 50% back at 3-4 weeks, get 5% back if you cancel any less than that (yeah, I'd like to make it zero, but you need to give someone a reason to get on the phone.......................).
Or, if every day counts, have the percentage returned decline on a daily basis........
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Old 08-03-2016   #7
Pieter Porcupine
 
Denver, Colorado
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Originally Posted by Koffler View Post
My two cents: You don't need to up the entry fee. But you do need to create an incentive to show up or cancel (early).

How about you put down some level of a $100-400 deposit. Get it all back if you show up. Get 90% back if you cancel a month in advance. Get 50% back at 3-4 weeks, get 5% back if you cancel any less than that (yeah, I'd like to make it zero, but you need to give someone a reason to get on the phone.......................).
Or, if every day counts, have the percentage returned decline on a daily basis........
Seems simple but don't forget... You are dealing with the government.
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Old 08-03-2016   #8
 
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Originally Posted by Koffler View Post

How about you put down some level of a $100-400 deposit. Get it all back if you show up. Get 90% back if you cancel a month in advance. Get 50% back at 3-4 weeks, get 5% back if you cancel any less than that (yeah, I'd like to make it zero, but you need to give someone a reason to get on the phone.......................).
Or, if every day counts, have the percentage returned decline on a daily basis........
Cancelling after 8/15 should result in 100% lose of all moneys and lose of future application status! See water is always bad that time of year, weather is hot, so they know what the deal is. Its the most predictable time of year on the water. There are no supersizes! This is where a fat $500 none refundable deposit would work.

The issue wont change if it does not hurt to cancel. The cancellations started showing up in June! A great deal of them in July. Nobody will get those permits. The permit holder would still get their money back, be eligible for next year, and disenfranchise everyone who selected those dates.

The real issue is going to come in a couple years when outfitters go after those permits. They wont stop there either. They will go for more permits all year! If we the public boaters willing fail to exercise the permit alocations, we will lose access for all in the future.
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Old 08-03-2016   #9
 
Great Falls, Montana
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DBK, are you saying that although none of the rest of us can access the cancelled permit, commercial guides can?
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Old 08-03-2016   #10
 
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Oregon City, Oregon
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Originally Posted by ob1coby View Post
DBK, are you saying that although none of the rest of us can access the cancelled permit, commercial guides can?
I'm saying that they're there, and they can go at the drop of a hat. Can you get a week off to go rafting on three days notice? Can you even get to the river with your raft in that time? Neither can I. But an underemployed guide in North Fork? No problem.
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