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Old 08-17-2016   #51
Dipshit with the most.
carvedog's Avatar
Bellevue, Idaho
Paddling Since: 1991
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 2,497
Originally Posted by The Mogur View Post
I'm saying that they're there, and they can go at the drop of a hat. Can you get a week off to go rafting on three days notice? Can you even get to the river with your raft in that time? Neither can I. But an underemployed guide in North Fork? No problem.
I know of no guides who boat any of the main rivers except pretty much exclusively in the shoulder seasons. In the nearly fifteen years guiding professionally I don't think I ever did a peak season private trip. And if guides are taking a week here or there and thus unavailable to the outfitter, they won't be guides for long.

Edit to add: Yes I can and do go boating at a moments notice. Best I ever did was talk to my buddy Thursday afternoon and we drove the put in the next afternoon. Launched at six pm for a 26 hour plan to hit the river.

In the BC times (before children) my wife and I hit the MF in as little as three days notice a couple of times. One of the reasons I loved her, she cleared the plate for river trips. Try boating in October, there is very little competition for permits.

Originally Posted by elkhaven View Post
This is just a way for someone (or somegroup) within the service to push an agenda: They want to limit use below what their plan states so they found this "loop hole", if you will, to reduce user days. It's analogous, in a way, to Carvedog's statement that the FS has budget to plow the road to boundary creek, but doesn't - Supposedly to let the camps rest a little longer...(I hope I'm paraphrasing that correctly, it's been a while since I read it). It's probably the same folks pushing to reduce use of the resource.
You are paraphrasing correctly. I nearly choked on my coffee when he said that. That 'Ranger' is no longer working on the Middle Fork from what I have heard. I haven't spoken to the new ranger but will soon.

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Old 08-18-2016   #52
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
Paddling Since: 1967
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1,022
We all know how it works. Over the snowy months you talk with your river buds, deciding what rivers you want next year. Come time to apply, you fire off applications to every agency, for every river, for whatever you can get.
Some years you get the permit(s) some years the permit(s) get you.
In any case, then the horse trading begins; We'll run this river on your permit, that river on mine, but wait; Joes' wife doesn't like my wife, and I don't want to be in the same state with that loafer Caleb...............
It takes months of high level horse trading and butt hurt feelings to get it into the best possible season.
And then, and only then, do the unneeded permits get canceled.

Greed runs rampant in the permit system; understandable, but regrettable.

Non refundable entry fees would only increase the stress level, non refundable permit fees would force quicker decisions. "reusable" permit fees would further complicate the entire process.

Schutzie would think a higher (refundable) entry fee coupled with a non refundable permit fee would get the desired result.
Once you win a date, you have XX days to pay the permit fee or forfeit the entry fee. Once the Permit fee is paid, you forfeit if you don't use it.

This would force applicants to think twice about shotgunning the permit system, and force them to make a decision early enough to allow for permit reissues.
And a pox on Joe's wife; my wife is a better cook and she can row the rig.

One other thought; maybe the late cancellations are because we just got a last minute permit on our first choice river, but it conflicts with our Idaho permit, so now we gotta dump the Idaho permit at the last minute.

Again; greed prevails. I want what I want when I want it and I want it free!

Quick comment on the greedy commercial fat cats; for better or worse, they have costs and risks private boaters cannot appreciate. Ease up a bit until you've been there, done that.

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