Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries - Page 5 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-06-2016   #41
 
elkhaven's Avatar
 
Belgrade, Montana
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I've been following this discussion and have thought a few times about adding my two cents but have refrained. Now that I'm here, one thing that has come up was the increase in impact that would occur if all those 8/15 to 9/15 permits were reissued... well unless I'm mistaken the powers that be set the quota assuming those dates would be used. They have already said (in essence) that the resource can handle all those user days filled or they wouldn't be able to allow that many user days. If I'm not mistaken that is a requisite portion of their management plan - an analysis of sustainable impact. I'm sure part of that is based on a certain number of no-shows, but I doubt it was based on 75% no-show, or even 50%. Long story short, in my opinion any argument about increased impact if the permits were reissued she be a non-issue - that "increased" impact has already been accounted for in the management plan.

This is just a way for someone (or somegroup) within the service to push an agenda: They want to limit use below what their plan states so they found this "loop hole", if you will, to reduce user days. It's analogous, in a way, to Carvedog's statement that the FS has budget to plow the road to boundary creek, but doesn't - Supposedly to let the camps rest a little longer...(I hope I'm paraphrasing that correctly, it's been a while since I read it). It's probably the same folks pushing to reduce use of the resource.

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Old 08-06-2016   #42
 
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page, Arizona
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i hate the grand canyon lottery point system, i have been able to get down there the last 2 years but i haven't been able to bring family, or even a passenger. going on the river every year knocks my points to 1 so people who have never gone are 5 times more likely to get a permit on any day i put in.... i would rather see the bonus points come from consecutive years without getting a permit that one enters the lottery... by basing your points off of how long one abstains from the river, it punishes those of us who are willing to help get a random group down the river, by lowering our chance to get a permit to take our friends and families...
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Old 08-17-2016   #43
 
Great Falls, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mogur View Post
I'm saying that they're there, and they can go at the drop of a hat. Can you get a week off to go rafting on three days notice? Can you even get to the river with your raft in that time? Neither can I. But an underemployed guide in North Fork? No problem.
I would tell you that in fact I can go at the drop of a hat, and get a week off in a moments notice, (or at least try) and that I always try to keep my gear ready to run because that is just about the only way to get permits anymore. I would tell you that but that's not the point.

The point is that this is a PUBLIC RESOURCE and there shouldn't be any special favors to guides or anyone else. Do you remember a little thing called "equal treatment under the law"? Don't worry no one else does either.

If the cancellations are available they should be available to everyone and if most people can't make it happen due to short notice then they would end up going to the "underemployed guide" anyway, at which point we can go back to DBKs original issue of stiff penalties to those that cancel too short or at all.
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Old 08-17-2016   #44
 
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Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ob1coby View Post
The point is that this is a PUBLIC RESOURCE and there shouldn't be any special favors to guides or anyone else. Do you remember a little thing called "equal treatment under the law"?
I agree that we're talking about a public resource, however I would be very surprised if private permits are commonly given to outfitters because outfitters usually need months lead time to fill their trips and often the allocation is designated for either private or outfitter use.

This practice may have changed, but the only place I know of user-day allocation going between private boaters and outfitters is the San Juan where outfitters would return any unused allocation to a common pool a week or two before launch if they couldn't fill trips. This allowed private boaters the chance to snag last minute small-group trips if they hadn't won permits in the lottery.

Does anyone else know of whether this is still the case? More importantly, are there rivers where private allocation is given to outfitters if the privates cancel?

My understanding is this thread is about private boaters hedging their bets with more permits than they planned on taking, and then cancelling late when they go on a more desirable trip.

Thanks,

-AH
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Old 08-17-2016   #45
 
Great Falls, Montana
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Then I must have misunderstood something here. I understood from DBKs statement that commercial outfitters / guides have access to the cancelled permits. Is that correct?
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Old 08-17-2016   #46
 
Great Falls, Montana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dirtbagkayaker View Post

The real issue is going to come in a couple years when outfitters go after those permits. They wont stop there either. They will go for more permits all year! If we the public boaters willing fail to exercise the permit alocations, we will lose access for all in the future.

This one...
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Old 08-17-2016   #47
 
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Belgrade, Montana
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Actually he put out an IF statement.... If things continue then, this is his projected outcome....... It does not currently work that way. It's just a well founded fear.
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Old 08-17-2016   #48
 
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Wheat Ridge, Colorado
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ob1coby View Post
Then I must have misunderstood something here. I understood from DBKs statement that commercial outfitters / guides have access to the cancelled permits. Is that correct?
I don't think so. The way I understand it DBK is talking about overall allocation of the use over a longer term. An example of this would be during a 5-year review river managers look at the total number of user days used by the two groups. If private boaters had not used nearly our share, the managers may say, "well, the private boaters have lots of cancellations and unused days, so let's shift some of that unused allocation to outfitters." They may then decrease the number of permits available to private boaters and increase those for the outfitters in a management plan revision.

This does seem to be a possibility and has happened before, on the Ark I believe, with allocation being shifted between private boaters and outfitters (both ways but on different reaches of the river) to more realistically allocate usage to what's actually occurring. I think in that case it helped prevent implementing a permit system for private boaters in the mid oughts after private boaters exceeded our allocation on Brown's back in about '03.

-AH
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Old 08-17-2016   #49
 
Denver, Colorado
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Dutch auction instead of lottery
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Old 08-17-2016   #50
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fumble View Post
Dutch auction instead of lottery
I guess that's what GaryJohnson would do. The highest bidder gets it. Not sure if that's how I want to do it...
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