Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries - Page 4 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-04-2016   #31
 
Eugene, Oregon
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I am not sure I would want to be around while my cat burned?

I see your point and I understand it. I just got on the Yampa after our group put in for forever.

BUT, per your numbers the usage (ignoring commercial use) would increase by 300% if all permits were used. It seems to me that this would have to have an impact on the river corridor.

Note: I almost typed my prior comment a few times and then did not because I did not want seem that I was arguing for the sake of arguing. I am actually interested in your thoughts.

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Old 08-04-2016   #32
 
cedar city, Utah
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I wonder why more rivers have not gone to point systems and weighted lotteries? Seems to mitigate much if this type of misuse.

The Utah hunt lottery also takes the time to call those next in line (likely hard to define) when a premium.tag is turned in (rare because of consequences and positive incentives).
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Old 08-04-2016   #33
 
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Originally Posted by squeaks2 View Post
On the other hand, doesn't a large amount of no-shows reduce the net impact on the river?

Is this a bad thing?

Short run NO but long run YES. You see right now the impact is super low. Private boaters will push small parties this time of year and currently there are lots of cancellations.

The issue would be that in the future commercial permits would replace un-used private permits.

Once that occurs then there will be more ppl on the river forever because commercial parties gather larger numbers consistently.
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Old 08-04-2016   #34
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Originally Posted by dirtbagkayaker View Post
Short run NO but long run YES. You see right now the impact is super low. Private boaters will push small parties this time of year and currently there are lots of cancellations.

The issue would be that in the future commercial permits would replace un-used private permits.

Once that occurs then there will be more ppl on the river forever because commercial parties gather larger numbers consistently.

I think that is a very valid point, where I used to guide ( the Ark), historical use played a huge roll in future allocation of user day's for outfitters. Giving outfitters unused private boater permits could really decrease the number of private permits in the future, depending on the rules for the particular river in question.
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Old 08-04-2016   #35
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[QUOTE=restrac2000;441709

I agree with Tom on this that an ideal solution incorporates positive incentives, though I think it needs to also be coupled with negative measures for repeat offenders.

Phillip[/QUOTE]
Negative measures for repeat offenders does seem like a pretty fair and reasonable solution, with less chance of harming people with legitimate reasons to cancel.

I also like DBKs' idea of more weighted lottery's and point systems.
I actually like a lot about the Grand Canyon lottery system, as much as I have bitched about many other aspects of how things seem to run in that national park.

Agreed that we should not castigate all regulatory agency's for the problems that do exist. If it sounds like I have in my posts, I apologize, though there is much that angers me in many areas of Government, there are many good people doing a good job to. Just can't help wanting the bad apples out of the bin, always feels like there are a lot.

Shutting up now and going boating.
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Old 08-04-2016   #36
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I mean Philips Idea, sorry
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Old 08-04-2016   #37
 
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In Idaho there are lotteries in hunting that seem to work well.

Some draws are "Once in a Lifetime" "Super Hunt" type things. How great and profitable would a "Super Float Lottery" be? Everyone puts in $6 and 1 person floats what ever river in Idaho on any day they want too. Or how about a "Mega Float" where the winner gets all 4 rivers. I digress....
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Old 08-04-2016   #38
 
summit, Colorado
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They actually have that lottery on the Smith in Montana - every year they hold a "super permit lottery" in addition to the regular one, and whoever wins gets to pick any date they want for their launch. Only $5 per entry!
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Old 08-05-2016   #39
 
Ft. Collins, Colorado
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I agree that something needs to be done about the unused permits. The opportunity lost by unused permits is not really measurable in dollars. Also, the permit costs do not reflect the total expense to the US taxpayer for everything that makes your river trip possible.

The same thing has happened in recent years with reservable campsites on public lands. Now that you can reserve a $15 per nite campsite 6 months in advance online there are many campsites that are paid for and reserved and are going unused. It really does cost more than $15 per nite to make those campsites available to the public. Also, there is a huge opportunity loss in that many people who would actually go camping (me) dont have the opportunity since all of the campsites are reserved. At $15 a nite if you dont show for a weekend and are out $30 its no big deal for almost everyone. The solution is simple, a monetary deposit that is non-refundable in case of a no show.
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Old 08-06-2016   #40
 
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They actually have that lottery on the Smith in Montana - every year they hold a "super permit lottery" in addition to the regular one, and whoever wins gets to pick any date they want for their launch. Only $5 per entry!
They have the super permit lotteries for just about anything that requires a draw permit, Big Horns, elk, bison, moose, mtn goats, etc. but think of it as a revenue generator not a means of acquiring a tag. The odds are really low. It's much more like buying a powerball ticket then putting in for a river permit.
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