Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries - Page 3 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-04-2016   #21
Misspellingintothefuture!
 
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Fraser, Colorado
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Very mature of you Andy. Implying that I don't realize Government Agency's ever refund money is a pretty big insult.

I am not saying that all government is bad, but I do think we have to much, with a large portion of it being corrupt and doing a poor job.
There are Agency's that do a fantastic job, in my opinion, I think highly of all the BLM rangers on Deso I have met, the town of Fraser has been very cool to work with, starting a Business this past year. There are quite a few very awesome Government employees that work for less then awesome Government Entities.

But I still maintain that returning money is against the nature of governing agency's.
Think back on the extra revenue the state of Colorado collected on recreational marijuana sales, they even stated how they did not want to give the money back to the tax payers.
Not a huge fan of giving river management Agency's hundreds of dollars in excess of the permit fee, then asking for it to be returned. I do agree with The Mogur that it would be good to address this problem though, just not exactly in that way.

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Old 08-04-2016   #22
Misspellingintothefuture!
 
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Fraser, Colorado
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[QUOTE=Tom Martin;44167

To those of you who don't like new folks winning permits and then asking lots of questions and looking for experienced folks to go boating with, welcome to the world of river running. This has been going on since the days of John Wesley Powell.

Andy, help me hobble off this soap box now... :>)[/QUOTE]

Tom,
I can only assume you are talking about me, I do not have a problem with new folks asking questions, I answer lot's on mountain Buzz, but what does annoy me is people applying for and winning a highly coveted permit without seemingly having put any amount of effort into learning about boating.

There are so many people that have spent years running other stuff and learning to boat there, first. Then some one with no experience that has not put in effort, gets the permit, then they ask basically how to run rivers, I don't mind the folks that are just asking questions to make sure they are ready for the next step in boating, just people that don't seem like they did anything to try and learn before they applied.

You know better then most, being a river historian and all, that early river runners usually did not have a foggy going into it.
But there was no one at the put in stopping them, like today, any one could go if they had the gumption and perseverance.

Hopefully I clarified my statements, so if folks disagree, they will know what the're disagreeing with.

Peace and happy boating,
Matt
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Old 08-04-2016   #23
 
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Bazzaro, World
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ob1coby View Post
DBK, are you saying that although none of the rest of us can access the cancelled permit, commercial guides can?
Not currently at the moment.

But I have heard grumbling from guides that if we willing let those permits go to waste every year, year after year, than they should get those permits from the get go. So on the days where there is 1 commercial and 3 private. They will lobby for 2 commercial and 2 private with no impact to private boaters.

If we do not use our current allocations they will win and they should because we are not being good stewards of the private permits.

Guides pack every trip and give access to lots of ppl.
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Old 08-04-2016   #24
 
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Originally Posted by Tom Martin View Post

Incentives encourage river runners into a permit system that wants to see them launch at the put-in. How COOL is THAT!!! Letting folks cancel but use their $ later in the season makes sense.
Will that is not very cool on the MFS, cuz you wont have anther opportunity in that year. And if you cancel a 8/15 of later permit no-one will have the opportunity.

That is why I like the fat nonrefundable deposit for post 8/15 private permits.

Everyone knows what the MFS is like after 8/15. Its the same every year. There are no suprises

THERE ARE NO GOOD REASONS TO CANCEL A 8/15 OR LATER PRIVATE PERMIT!!!!! (maybe medical)

I have no issues with pre 8/15 permit private system.
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Old 08-04-2016   #25
 
Woodland Park, Colorado
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It would be nice to have the fees reapply for later in the season. I know this doesn't apply to the post 8/15 permits. However I have won 2 out of 4 early season MFS permits in the last few years ( early june). First year was perfect, 2nd year was huge high water and beyond the skills of my crew. I ended up cancelling the 2nd year and running Hells Canyon instead. It would have been nice to try for a later ju,e or july cancellation and have my fees apply to it.
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Old 08-04-2016   #26
 
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Originally Posted by JustinJam View Post
It would be nice to have the fees reapply for later in the season. I know this doesn't apply to the post 8/15 permits. However I have won 2 out of 4 early season MFS permits in the last few years ( early june). First year was perfect, 2nd year was huge high water and beyond the skills of my crew. I ended up cancelling the 2nd year and running Hells Canyon instead. It would have been nice to try for a later ju,e or july cancellation and have my fees apply to it.
Its only $6 to land a later permit. You only lost $6 on the early cancellation and someone had the opportunity to go on your permit. I don't see how $6 would make or break anyone. A $6 cost is peanuts. Hell I lost a $6 fishing lure last week and I didn't sweat it. Just a thought......
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Old 08-04-2016   #27
 
cedar city, Utah
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So, nuance and caveats are a reality in life. I think the system needs to be addressed but I don't subscribe to black-and-white notions stated above.

1) To me the sheer #of cancellations exposes a misuse of the system. I believe it's about hedging and applying for permits as secondary options with limited interest in actually using it. Could be wrong.

2) There are plenty of reasons to cancel a permit beyond personal medical problems. Life happens. I don think penalizing people heavily for unplanned circumstances makes sense. We all work too hard for the little $ most of us make for an agency to take it out of petty consequences. The agencies and public servants I know would agree.

3) Most if the river permits I have used refund $ minus a small transaction fee. They are not greedy. The caveat is cancelling with advanced notice, normally about a month. Seems plenty fair. Scapegoating agencies for a complex issue doesn't seem to lead to solutions. As much as I dislike Rec.gov it had a built in cancellation system that is clear and consistent with the industry.

I agree with Tom on this that an ideal solution incorporates positive incentives, though I think it needs to also be coupled with negative measures for repeat offenders. The goal should be to funnel people into ideal behavior.

All said and done I have yet to see an ideal lottery and permit structure for resources with heavy demand.

Phillip
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Old 08-04-2016   #28
 
Eugene, Oregon
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On the other hand, doesn't a large amount of no-shows reduce the net impact on the river?

Is this a bad thing?
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Old 08-04-2016   #29
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squeaks2 View Post
On the other hand, doesn't a large amount of no-shows reduce the net impact on the river?

Is this a bad thing?
If you just burn your boat and stay home it will reduce the net impact on the river. Is that a bad thing?

This isn't about impact on the river. It is about (as the thread title says) frivolous entries in the permit lotteries that make it unnecessarily difficult for people serious about boating to get a permit.
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Old 08-04-2016   #30
 
cedar city, Utah
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Originally Posted by squeaks2 View Post
On the other hand, doesn't a large amount of no-shows reduce the net impact on the river?

Is this a bad thing?
I go back and forth on this issue myself. Ideally, the agency us supposed to have designed a permit structure that balances recreational needs with resource protection. I think most agencies do an acceptable job in this regard. If that is the case than filled cancellations should be have no increased impact on the river corridor. That is the argument with the MFS issue at hand and allegedly the biological assessment agrees.

At moments I still lean towards the notion that bless is better but its hard to justify rationally, except for a solitude perspective (which I love). But in reality our community has been forced to minimize our most notable impacts: human feces and urine; micro food trash; fires; etc. The worst I normally see is hardened soil at campsites and that is an issue that is inherent with any designated campsite lication

It's tricky balancing recreational demand with resource protection and it's a delicate relationship. Not sure there will ever be a definitive answer.
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