Frivolous Permit Lottery Entries - Page 2 - Mountain Buzz
 



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Old 08-03-2016   #11
 
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so Mogur are you saying that a rafting guide is a commercial outfitter

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Old 08-03-2016   #12
 
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Originally Posted by rivh2o View Post
so Mogur are you saying that a rafting guide is a commercial outfitter
Not that I'm aware of.
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Old 08-03-2016   #13
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I agree with you Ken, except the part about commercial guides getting the cancelations, when I was a guide, I was hard pressed to get a day off, much less a day off that was predictable more then a day out, though I did work on the Ark running day, and half day trips, so could be different elsewhere.
Regardless, the whole win a permit and hold on to it forever till last thing is getting old, it should hurt financially to hang on to permits till the last second and bail, thereby screwing over boaters that are responsible and have to work for a living.
I doubt that a system in which the governing agency gives back a deposit, would work out, just because it is against there nature to give back money, EVER, if they have anything to say in the matter. They really hate giving back money. But letting them keep permit fees further out for the flakes could help, and disqualifying people from getting a permit next season, that flake out within a certain time period, might help with this particular form of Bull shit.

While I'm at it, being annoyed with permit issues, "boaters" that win Grand Canyon permits, and then get on the Buzz, to ask unlimited numbers of questions, because they have no clue whatsoever, as to what they might be doing, or don't have even an idea of who they would boat with, really piss me off, kind of a lot. Sorry for thread deviation.
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Old 08-03-2016   #14
 
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Originally Posted by The Mogur View Post
There were 260 other first choice applications in the 4 Rivers Lottery for the river and date I applied for. Four permits were issued to the lottery winners for that date. Two of those permits were put up for grabs during the last ten days before the launch date--too late for most people to take advantage of. One of the permit-holders was a no-show.

So I extend my personal THANKS A LOT to you three rectal orifices.

The fact that 3/4 of the lottery winners were flakes is not unusual. In fact it is typical of river permit lotteries everywhere (except Grand Canyon, which I will explain below). What it means is that a majority of those applying for permits in the lottery aren't really serious about going down the river. The result is that they greatly increase the odds against the rest of us getting a permit, and effectively shut us out.

The main beneficiaries appear to be off-duty local guides who can claim a last-minute permit, and head for the river for a boatman's holiday.

Is there a way to prevent frivolous permit applications? That's where we should look at the Grand Canyon lottery: $25 lottery entry fee, plus a $400 non-refundable deposit for lottery winners. And THAT is why there are relatively few no-shows and late cancellations in Grand Canyon.

There has to be something to lose, and it has to be enough to hurt. Until that happens, irresponsible flakes will continue to dominate the permit lotteries, while the rest of us scramble to catch a permit from the cancellation pool and simultaneously make Plan B arrangements for one of the non-permit rivers, which are becoming fewer every year.
I can't wait to pay $25 to apply for permits I probably won't win! Great idea.
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Old 08-03-2016   #15
 
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I can't wait to pay $25 to apply for permits I probably won't win! Great idea.
Well that'how it is on the Yampa/ Ladore I pay my 15 bucks and never win in 31 years can't wait till next years donation. yee ha!
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Old 08-03-2016   #16
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Well that'how it is on the Yampa/ Ladore I pay my 15 bucks and never win in 31 years can't wait till next years donation. yee ha!
Kinda feels like your in the business of just getting fucked sometimes doesn't it, between some of the regs, and some of the douches getting into boating.
To many people, and although we're talking about an additional reg, to much government.
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Old 08-03-2016   #17
 
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.....I doubt that a system in which the governing agency gives back a deposit, would work out, just because it is against there nature to give back money, EVER, if they have anything to say in the matter. They really hate giving back money.
Here's an exception to your whiny anti-government drivel: BLM Moab (Westwater) allows folks that cancel within a reasonable time before their launch date to apply their paid trip permit fees to later trips in the same season. That's kind of nice and they're not just keeping your money just because they can.

-AH
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Old 08-04-2016   #18
 
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Privatization is the answer
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Old 08-04-2016   #19
 
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Buzzards, Andy and I rarely agree, so when we do, you all might might be interested...

Disincentives piss people off. They will sit on a permit till the end and dump it as a way to tell the agency "This is not working."

Incentives encourage river runners into a permit system that wants to see them launch at the put-in. How COOL is THAT!!! Letting folks cancel but use their $ later in the season makes sense.

To those of you who don't like new folks winning permits and then asking lots of questions and looking for experienced folks to go boating with, welcome to the world of river running. This has been going on since the days of John Wesley Powell.

What is wrong in this system is the unjustifiable set aside of allocation for commercial use. That statement would be a thread hijack unless I added this: If all river runners had to play the river access lottery, I bet some very incentive-rich and transparently fair permit systems would have been created by now.

Andy, help me hobble off this soap box now... :>)
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Old 08-04-2016   #20
 
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Private Federal Contract is the Problem

Sounds like Moab BLM may have made some innovations that the faceless corporation behind recreation.gov never will. Kudos!

The dead hand of Reagan gave this federal function to private contractors who could care less about anything other than cash and data mining the applications.

https://fcw.com/articles/2014/12/16/...nd-profit.aspx

http://federalnewsradio.com/technolo...cations-hands/

My guess is the cancellation policies on recreation.gov are set to maximize application fees and therefore corporate cash, and not to achieve anything discussed so far in this thread.

Give public service back to our public servants. At least when government employees screw it up, we have some right to redress our grievance.
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