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Old 02-12-2013   #11
lmyers's Avatar
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 2005
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 4,180
Originally Posted by Nathan View Post
I wonder if it is the moderator that is skeptical about the project that conveniently deleted and locked the thread?
I will not comment on this at the moment except to say that I did not delete/lock anything. Other than that I will wait to comment until the person who did the moderation reads this thread.

GARNA’s mission is to foster stewardship of the resources of the greater Arkansas River region through education, volunteerism and experiences.
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Old 02-12-2013   #12
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Originally Posted by RiverWrangler View Post
So I log back into Mountainbuzz to make a bit of final plea for funds and to honestly say to take it easy on Idahofloater and also the moderators who I thought were just trying to keep things civil on the "I'm willing to place a wager" thread. It's not my style to make inflammatory comments and I don't think personal attacks accomplish much except making the attacker seem petty. So I was going to try and put this stuff in perspective and ask that despite the drama there really is some good discussion going down and the thread had in fact helped me refine my approach to the film.

So I go into the thread and it seems like some stuff is missing. I start to hunt through it a little bit and see that it has been selectively edited and closed. Reading through to see what still exists I find myself becoming more and more unhappy with the way the thread is left, yet I'm unable to do anything to rectify it because it's closed.

A lot of bitching and moaning goes on about the moderators and some might be surprised that a good portion of the time I side with the moderators. I've been on this site for well over a decade and I don't think people are joking when they say it used to be more fun, light hearted and because almost everyone knew everyone else in the beginning, things could be spoken that could easily be taken the wrong way but instead would always be taken with a grain of salt. Now there's obviously a lot more people, which makes the forum a much more powerful, and at times interesting place, but it also brings along anonymity and a range of visitors, some without a sense of humor and some who choose to intentionally be vindictive, mean and/or antagonistic. I guess sometimes it is hard to tell the jokes from the attacks, especially when many times they are one in the same. I guess what I'm trying to say is the moderators have their place in a forum this large.

However, the way this thread was handled displays in my opinion the over reach of, and the epitome of, selective moderation. I am not certain, but the way the thread was moderated makes me feel that the deletions to the post were made mostly at the request of Idahofloater - and if they weren't, it at least appears that way.

Lotsawater should not have responded with name calling to what clearly was an attack on our project from Idahofloater. The simple fact remains though that his attack was made first, and was made personal by his line insinuating that my "childern (sic) will miss their father because their father has more important things to do." I believe Lotsawater's greater point and from my reading, the community's general consensus, that Idahofloater should issue an apology was an important part of the discussion regarding our project. At least an important part to me.

Whether he apologizes or not, it afforded me the opportunity to defend myself as a parent and to further explain the purpose of our mission in the context of my children. Instead as the thread currently reads, Idahofloaters comments are allowed to remain, yet numerous comments putting his criticism in context are withdrawn from the thread. Does this "moderation" in the name of removing an immature moment of name calling, not take more away from the discussion than just the name calling? Couldn't some of the language have been toned down without removing the entire back half of the thread where there were valid points made about the validity of the project? Why can Idahofloater be called a douchebag and not a something else? Why does the thread need to be closed and furthermore why does the removal of the replies begin with the post calling out the moderators? Is there something wrong with relaying the moderation? Do we have the gestapo as our moderators who must operate in secret?

I feel short changed. I feel that for some reason we've been held accountable while Idahofloater has not been. Looking back through, Idaho's comments were offensive, but I didn't whine to the moderators about be called out. I responded and defended myself, yet Idahofloater is mysteriously absent from the rest of thread after he was called out asking for an apology. Maybe the thread just wasn't moving in a positive direction anymore, and I can understand that, but the way it has been left and then closed is an irresponsible use of moderator authority.
Well thought out piece of commentary, thanks for giving it some thought. I will try to respond for my part and not speak for other moderators as I did not discuss my response beforehand with them.

Their are several moderators so the appearance often appears uneven. Its not very often that we get the goldilocks approach correct. Rarely do we get it just right. If you are dissapointed then we will try to do better in the future and learn from this situation. Thank you for your comments and we are discussing and trying to learn from them for the future.

Idaho was wrong to post his thoughts about this trips affects on your children. It was a tough line to walk as to what to do with it. Lotsa was wrong to post back his infraction. Oh well, lets move on.

My personal opinion is that you were undermining your efforts and your thread was just creating conflict and not doing much for your cause.


"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 02-12-2013   #13
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,237
So I got censored, Ok...I can see ending a thread when it has degenerated to name calling, but selectively editing it? it is ok to make liberal or socialist a four letter word (not just the buzz.but society at large) but you can 't call people who advocate :racist policies, believe in American exceptionalism, don 't take eñvironmental problems seriously, still believe .in God in the 21st century, and generally seek a return to some mythical Yankee Doodle whiteman capitalist golden age, social primitives and troglodytes? The guy is from Idaho and posted a thread about conspiracy theories of Jewish bankers secretly run the world, thus the Aryan Nations reference.Guys with his mentality came to Denver and murdered Alan Berg,acontroversial Jewish liberal talk show host.I lived two blocks away at the time.Ithink a big light needs to be shined on these characters.
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Old 02-12-2013   #14
Fort Collins, Colorado
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 1
Oy vey...

I tried. I really tried to sit on my hands, but alas, I cannot any longer (funny, same thing happened to me over and over again on facebook during election season).

So, for my inaugural buzz post I will defend my husband (which, if you ask Lotsawater, can be quite a rare occurrence).

First, my husband is a great father. An exceptionally present father who would do absolutely anything for his little princesses. He has great aspirations for his daughters, but the greatest is for them to follow their dreams and know that if they work hard, apply themselves, and remain good, kind people, they can achieve just about anything - not only for themselves, but for others, and the environment. He is modeling this process for them through this project. And, as aggravated as I have occasionally gotten with him over the years for not having a "secure" job, I have become proud of him for sticking to his dreams and making sure they become a reality. It is a good balance for my daughters to see as I am much more comfortable in a 9-5, set income job. So, Idahofloater, please do not jump to conclusions. And, yes, you need to apologize. Don't ef with a mama bear.

Second, I believe that the worst part of the 'moderation' that occurred was that many valid points that had nothing to do with the attack on the importance my husband places on his role as a father were deleted. Now, yes, lotsawater might have been a bit more tactful when introducing the project to the buzz community (but, we all know that's just not his style), but many of the replies were very well-stated and included information that might help people when determining whether or not to support the project. For example, there won't be any DVD's, so Idahofloater your wager is not valid.

Finally, and these are minute points from the original thread, but they are bugging me, and I might as well address them in what is likely my one and only buzz post...

Riverwrangler is well aware that he is among the richest in the world and knows that he is incredibly lucky to have what he has in life. I believe he stated that he was not a particularly rich American.

And, the argument that we should focus our energies close to home, instead of elsewhere has always baffled me. Perhaps it is the way in which different people view the world. From an environmental, as well as humanitarian point of view, how can you place importance of one river, one human from a certain culture, etc. over any other simply based on location?

I will resume sitting on my hands and will likely not post again...unless someone insults my family again. Remember, never mess with a mama bear.
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Old 02-12-2013   #15
Pugetopolis, Washington
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 767
I think someone thats done as much as Evan has for our sports,should be shown a little more respect. He helped create the guidebook that we all own and use.One of my favorite guides ever,btw. Plus his work with AW. I think most people that know evan knows hes a family man. Every time i see him,in public or on FB,hes with his adorable little girls and hot wife(mama bear). I think the floater was just bein a tool b/c someone mentioned how the buzz was full of rafters and idahoans now. He just wanted to troll the dirtbag kayakers.
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Old 02-12-2013   #16
Andy R's Avatar
Somewhere on, Earth
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 261
I just wanted to chime in with some information on how we try to manage the Buzz and whey we don't have to deal with issues like this very often. For the most part we are pretty laid back and let things slide. Most of our members go about doing their thing and keep things respectful, it's business as usual. Every so often (it's very rare) things flare up regarding a heated topic and someone crosses the line. When the Buzz first started there were essentially no rules and no moderation, about 5 years ago we adopted a set of Community Rules (link) which I encourage everyone to re-read them.

We have these rules because our focus is to foster a respectful community and do not want some disrespectful people ruining the ambiance for the majority of people who visit our site. Unfortunately when someone pushes things too far we have to step in and draw the line in the sand. Trying to get things back on course can be difficult and is not a perfect art. We do our best with the best intentions of the community-at-large in mind and for the most part our team does a great job. We sometimes make mistakes and spend a lot of time reflecting on how we could handle situations differently in the future.

Sometimes we try to let things run their course hoping they will play out and we can move on. At times, this logic fails us and we simply have to step in and that's when people often cry foul. As I said, it's an imperfect art.
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Old 02-12-2013   #17
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1995
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 2,237
Andy -Andy -Flaco -GH -Logan,

In spite of bring one of your pain 's in the ass, I actually appreciate the job you do in general and know it is a thankless do what you think is right and we 'll gripe accordingly when we disagree...
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Old 02-12-2013   #18
Edmond, Oklahoma
Paddling Since: 1988
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 55
seems like everyone i have ever met on the river has become a friend. evan is one of the family to me. why does so much hate come from these keyboards? we are all part of a river family. this whole thing of disrespecting each other online is just wrong. i am sorry for anything i have said that has been offensive. the fact is that most of the controversy that is a part of these forums...would never happen on the river. on the river,people help each other,look out for each other and their well being. we all talk trash about swimming cause its part of the game. however,most of us would risk our lives for our fellow paddler thats havin a swim. lets embrace that and not hatred. i was never taught to watch someone suffer without help. i know my paddling crew feels the same. we do talk alot of shiZ to each other in good fun. but its just good fun and no hate. none of my homeboys are haters and have probably chased down your equipment at some time. i want as many friends as i can have. enemies are easy to come by.
Rob Hessman
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Old 02-12-2013   #19
Paddling Since: 96
Join Date: Feb 2009
Posts: 1,366
A couple things...

Its been 14? years since I paddled the Futa. I spent 10 days on the rio and about 10 days traveling the country. I didn't meet a single person that wanted the dam to be built. I met a whole community in that valley that was adamantly opposed. That included families that settled the valley. My understanding at the time was that the power was almost all going to go to Argentina mostly for an aluminum smelter. This doesn't qualify as a good development model for the local populace or the larger community. Its big business running roughshod over a community, an already functioning economy and the environment.

I thought the Idaho dude pretty much showed himself to be the Ahole he is by attacking someone's parenting because of their passion and commitment to preserving rios and communities. Yeah, he crossed a line but I thought Evan handled it just fine.

I also think the defense of Evan crossed a line. There was clearly an implied threat of physical violence. Where is it at when someone threatens violence over words on the internet? And demanding an apology while threatening violence seems silly on its surface.

The moderators have an impossible job. Could they do better? Sure. I thank them for their commitment to our online community.

Finally, thank you Evan, "RiverWrangler", for undertaking this project and for demonstrating a level head when dealing with a hater. And thank you "mamabear" for your contributions, both in this thread and for supporting your man's choices.

Carry on...
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Old 02-12-2013   #20
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 427
Wait, now I am confused. Who's mom do I have to bang to go to Patagonia?

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