My bad there are people that morally bankrupt; sociopaths,libertarians and neo cons,to a lesser extent the average republican.
Blutski,your arguement doesn;t even make sense.You are proving my point that the rich have co opted government.They declared class warfare on us not the other way around,but wer'e the bad guys for fighting back? I agree apathy played a role,thats why I AM FOR GIVING A SHIT!~
i think I have emphasised in my arguements that the government is supposed to be The People not some seperate entity ,nor am I DEFENDING THE GOVERNMENT IN IT'S CURRENT FORM,because it's tainted already by your beloved greedmongers.My theory of the psychology that underlines why you guys defend these assholes,is because you want to keep the door open so that if you ever become rich you can emulate them ,the absolute shallowest of aspirations,not to mention highly unrealistic.
You can be a self employed person ,thats fine,but you can't compete with the entrenched power that controls all significant economic variables,all I am demanding is accountability from those who affect our lives,it is analagous to 'no taxation without representation',or 'if you impact my life I want some say in it.
You are proving my point that the rich have co opted government.
That was my point too. The rich have co opted our governement. We agree. The finer point, though, is we allowed it to happen by giving the Federal government way more power than the Constitution ever allowed. When you do that, the money and corruption will flow to Washington. If Washington only had the power allowed by the Constitution, there would be no reason for the wealthy to try to influence it.
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Originally Posted by cayo 2
They declared class warfare on us not the other way around,but wer'e the bad guys for fighting back? I agree apathy played a role,thats why I AM FOR GIVING A SHIT!~.
So how's that fighting back going? Making much progress?
Quote:
Originally Posted by cayo 2
you can't compete with the entrenched power that controls all significant economic variables,all I am demanding is accountability from those who affect our lives,it is analagous to 'no taxation without representation',or 'if you impact my life I want some say in it.
And how's that going for you? I'm sure if we all complain a little louder the corporate interests controling Washington will give us a big apology.
My point is, if you don't want the wealthy co opting Washington and having so much power over us, don't give Washington more power than it was granted in the Constitution. That was the whole point of the Constitution. We're ignoring it and so now we only have ourselves to blame. If you want accountability, give the control back to the local level were it was originally meant to be and where you can have real accountablility.
First that was obnoxious and oppinionated on my part,just get infuriated was more directed at helio's callous attitude than you[ i know he's probably a good guy,just don't see eye ti eye]. I' ll clarify which libertarians,by my own words on another post 'there are degrees of libertarianism",the Ron Paul type LIB ,WHICH IT SEEMS YOU ARE ARE NOT MORALLY BANKRUPT ,but imo misguided,the average republican is culpable to a MUCH Lesser degree.I offer no appologies to the neo cons or Ayn Rand type libertarians they are morally bankrupt,thats probably too kind.
I guess maybe I didn't fully understand your point the first go round,i don't think you are trying very hard to see mine either.I'D HAVE TO CONSIDER MORE BUT MY INITIAL RESPONSE WOULD BE NOT EVERYBODY INTERPERETS THE CONSTITUTION THE SAME WAY AS THE LIBERTARIANS.Nor does a document written hundreds of years ago adequately adress every problem we face now,but it's an excellent foundation.
As far as the " hows that workin' for ya' " arguements ,pretty weak,do you propose we just give up and concede as you seem to be sayin we already fucked up and it;s our own fault so live with it,hows that going to work.I AM SAYING STAND UP FOR YOUR RIGHTS AND PARTICIPATE IN THE PROCESS AND ENGAGE IN CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE IF NECESSARY.in every day life about all you can try to do is call attention to problems /raise awareness. Demand a return to oversite and regulation by and behalf of the people,that requires government.You are saying government and its concentration of power corrupted business,I AM SAYING BUSINESS AND IT'S CONCENTRATION OF WEALTH CORRUPTED GOVERNMENT,both have proven they can do a good job of corrupting themselves,then they feed of each other.
Giving more localized power is generally more efficient and good ,but doesn't address problems beyond the scope of its jurisdiction,and the world is increasingly intertwined so you need levels of government to deal with problems of that scale,try to limit each level's power to only the issues pertinate to it and return power to the most localized level possible.
I see where you're coming from. I guess where we disagree is I don't think any amount of participating in the process is going to bring us back from where we are. Voting, writing letters to you congressmen, civil disobedience won't do anything against the corporate money infesting our government.
So why not try going back to what we know DID work. The constitution, local control and limited centralized government.
Can you explain why the Contitution doesn't address the needs of our country today and why localized control is inadeqaute? What has giving all this power to the Federal Government gotten us other than handing wealthy businesses the key to our freedoms?
I am no constitutional scholar ,what I am saying is that the world changes new unanticipated problems arise,the constitution lays out basic principles and guidelines that are still adequate in most instances.The framers were brilliant men but not omnicient[sp] and I THINK THEY DELIBERATELY LEFT THINGS OPEN TO INTERPRETATION,[do you think a bunch of smart dudes back then could agree in totality any more than we can today] it just gives more flexibility.Most other countries get new constitutions periodically usually under bad circumstances,but sometimes by orderly public vulition.Alot of them were based on the US constitution in the first place.
I am not against localizing government more,just think there are different scales,you don't want the feds on the local level,why should a city dictate a national or international policy,though the citizens of that city should have a say[accountability] in all levels of government that affect them.
YOU MAY BE RIGHT ABOUT THE INEFFECTIVENESS OF THOSE METHODS,BUT SHORT OF REVOLUTION ,HOW DO YOU SUGGEST WE GET BACK TO THE WAYS THAT WORK?not trying to be a jackass but when exactly was it when they worked,I KNOW IT'S GOTTEN MUCH WORSE SINCE rEAGAN AND DERGULATION.
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