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Old 04-01-2009   #21
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A great article;

Freedom and Free Enterprise

If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be. - Thomas Jefferson

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Old 04-01-2009   #22
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Originally Posted by TakemetotheRiver View Post
I agree that Obama is not the Answer, but rather the lesser of two evils. As the House killed the Wilderness bill yesterday shows, he isn't even really the main problem. The system is still the problem.

I am still a proponent of anarchy and believe fully that with a socialist economy, an anarchical system of government would be the most beneficial to the most people and to the planet. However, it is impractical to believe that such a society could exist with such a large population, even if we didn't have 200 years of believing in and living the "American Dream." Such a drastic change in philosophy would be nearly impossible for people to accept even if the majority saw it as viable. As an idealist, I could see certain small communities (Durango-sized perhaps) able to demand autonomy from the US government and thereby establish a society in which the people govern themselves.

Unfortunately, like most political theories, anarchy is flawed in that people are flawed- inherently power hungry and greedy. So, I guess to answer your question, if you start the revolution, I will come help you run it, however, once it's started, what is the viable outcome? How will a group of anarchists, i.e. peace-loving, world-sharing, planet-saving hippies, keep a new and possibly more oppressive governmental system from being implemented?

On the other hand, if you know of an uncharted island in neutral territory for sale...
Thanks for the honest answer... and well stated at that.

I agree that anarchy has its flaws, just as every philosophy. I think you are right about this type of movement having to start in smaller communities. I would move to this community in a heartbeat if one were ever to gain autonomy. If it were successful it would probably spread - and maybe quickly. But, I'm guessing this is why the power structures would crush this idea... just like an assortment of different power structures crushed the movement after the Spanish civil war.

Just so you no.... I'm not the one starting a revolution. The seed has already been planted. And, the last 2 questions you asked are crucial questions - of which I am still struggling with the answer.

Kropotkin's essay actually addresses the "what will be the viable outcome" question. Read the below quote.

One of the problems I have with the activists movements of today is that they are way too divided. Even each movement is divided (ie: 3 or 4 different anti-war movements) Nothing will ever be accomplished until these groups can come together to create a common type of movement. However, I think we are beginning to see movements join in a common cause right now at the G-20 summit.

Finally the revolution breaks out, the more terrible as the preceding struggles were bitter.
The direction which the revolution will take depends, no doubt, upon the sum total of the various circumstances that determine the coming of the cataclysm. But it can be predicted in advance, according to the vigor of revolutionary action displayed in the preparatory period by the different progressive parties.
One party may have developed more clearly the theories which it defines and the program which it desires to realize; it may have made propaganda actively, by speech and in print. But it may not have sufficiently expressed its aspirations in the open, on the street, by actions which embody the thought it represents; it has done little, or it has done nothing against those who are its principal enemies; it has not attacked the institutions which it wants to demolish; its strength has been in theory, not in action; it has contributed little to awaken the spirit of revolt, or it has neglected to direct that spirit against conditions which it particularly desires to attack at the time of the revolution. As a result, this party is less known; its aspirations have not been daily and continuously affirmed by actions, the glamor of which could reach even the remotest hut; they have not sufficiently penetrated into the consciousness of the people; they have not identified themselves with the crowd and the street; they have never found simple expression in a popular slogan.
The most active writers of such a party are known by their readers as thinkers of great merit, but they have neither the reputation nor the capacities of men of action; and on the day when the mobs pour through the streets they will prefer to follow the advice of those who have less precise theoretical ideas and not such great aspirations, but whom they know better because they have seen them act.
The party which has made most revolutionary propaganda and which has shown most spirit and daring will be listened to on the day when it is necessary to act, to march in front in order to realize the revolution. But that party which has not had the daring to affirm itself by revolutionary acts in the preparatory periods nor had a driving force strong enough to inspire men and groups to the sentiment of abnegation, to the irresistible desire to put their ideas into practice,--(if this desire had existed it would have expressed itself in action long before the mass of the people had joined the revolt)--and which did not know how to make its flag popular and its aspirations tangible and comprehensive,--that party will have only a small chance of realizing even the least part of its program. It will be pushed aside by the parties of action.
Good discussion... gotta go to work though.

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Old 04-01-2009   #23
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theo good article i like the part about the two differently raised families. i agree deeply. i was sholving dog shit in the 1st grade, and yes i can remember this far back because i had just had my fingers superglued together by a babysitter. so back to topic. by my parents forcing me to do chores while very young i learned to deal with alot of the stresses that come with independency at a young age and learned that alot of great things come with independecy.

don't forget our history as revolutionaries.
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Old 04-01-2009   #24
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It will be pushed aside by the parties of action.

You cut right down to the crux of it - action.

Slow foods, the occasional trip with too many people to get along without some struggle and compromise, local economies, neighborliness, and other such mutual aid efforts are but a few trivial/powerful examples of actions which put some good 130-year-old thinking into current practice.

This is not pacifism or a hippy-dippy feel-good approach to creating real communities. It includes real - and sometimes harsh - consequences for parasites, slackers and assholes in general.
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Old 04-01-2009   #25
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This is what will need to happen- all the different factions need to find the common ground that allows them to create an action big enough for those in the "remotest hut" to see and aspire to join. Call me cynical, but I don't see that kind of continuity happening until some other cataclysmic event makes it necessary.

People, (at least in groups), don't change unless they are forced to or an opportunity presents itself- that's what I meant by, "you start the revolution..."

I'm starting to sound like I'm arguing against anarchy- I want to clarify that I definitely am not. This discussion is valuable because a different system is necessary and that is the system I would like to see in place. However, discussions like this have to take place before any real action can be achieved because a desired outcome needs to be clear from the beginning and needs to be agreed upon by those involved in the action.

Kropotkin's assertion is dead-on. The party who takes action will be most likely to succeed, but first we need to define success.
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Old 04-01-2009   #26
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success is liberty and the pursuit of happiness for all as stated in the original declaration of independende. i myself don't find the old america and the constitution as outdated or unnessecary i just think the current system could be alot different if there wasn't the self greed of man kind. so maybe no matter what system we use as a basis for everyday life. the greedy man will always be the suppresser. the human being would have to evolve say as more of a honey bee.
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Old 04-01-2009   #27
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the human being would have to evolve say as more of a honey bee.
I think that was tried, but the some "africanized" honey bees got into the hive and things got very unpredictable.
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Uh, I'm just gonna go find a cash machine.
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Old 04-02-2009   #28
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once again taking shit out of context. i think you probably have a hard time having a face to face conversation with somebody other than the mirror.
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Old 04-02-2009   #29
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So you're saying we need to evolve like Mormons?
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Old 04-02-2009   #30
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i say bees an you think breeding? try again jen.

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