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Old 10-18-2013   #51
Roy's Avatar
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
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No new taxes? Who was it who said that, and ended up eating his words? Reagan was it, or was it Bush?
Christ, you're old enough to remember Vietnam, but can't remember that? Bush the Elder said "read my lips" to win an election, then raised taxes anyway, because it was the responsible thing to do (just like Reagan did). He lost the next election because Perot split the vote and the (R)'s misinterpreted that to mean you can never raise any taxes ever, ever, ever no matter whaaaaaaat! We must starve the beast and drown it in a bathtub!!!! (#1 cause of deficits today, #2 being unfunded wars)

Ya, of course I'd vote for anybody with a rational plan. Hell, I've got a rational plan, but I'm unelectable and I need to go to bed, cuz I'm going boating in the morning.

I've a suggestion to keep you all occupied...learn to swim!
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Old 10-19-2013   #52
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
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Well, at least have a good one. Boating I mean.

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Old 10-22-2013   #53
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Publicans have no issue with new taxes, they don't want the "rich" gored for new taxes.

Dummycrats want new taxes. They want the "rich" to pay the taxes, not "working families". Whoever they are.

None of which helps us, cause one way or the other we all pay those new taxes.
While I agree with your first two statements, I disagree with the third. The rich have worked the system, and are winning. The democrats are bought off. Taxing the rich to solve our budget woes should be part of the debate.
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Old 10-22-2013   #54
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
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Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
This is why nothing except what is outline in the Constitution should be provide by the Federal Government.
The debate about the state compact theory vs. federalism surely is an interesting one - and one that has been ongoing since the Constitutional convention.

Originally Posted by blutzski View Post
Obamacare should be replaced with Hickenloopercare if that is what Colorado wants. Let each state figure out what works and what doesn't. Good models will get emulated and poor models will die. And corrupt politicians in the pockets of the insurance and pharmaceutical industries 2000 miles away won't be in charge of it. With a constitutionally limited federal government, the circus will leave town. And if they try to set up the tent at Colfax and Broadway, they better watch their backs.
A couple of things:

1) The Affordable Care Act was created by Congress within the enumerated powers designated to them in Article I of the Constitution. So Congress didn't overstep what is "outlined in the Constitution." The US Supreme Court held that the ACA was within its constitutional powers to tax people who didn’t buy insurance, and that the ACA didn't violate the commerce clause because it doesn't force states to participate in the program. Although, I recently read that the latter might have been violated, and a federal judge has allowed a lawsuit to proceed against the ACA

One of the most interesting things about the US SCT ruling, and one that is rarely talked about, is that the first holding about the constitutionality of taxing people who don't buy insurance completely opens the door for the constitutionality of a medicare-for-all system.

2) In large part, I agree with you about letting each state figure it out. In fact, numerous states are on the verge of creating state-based medicare-for-all systems. I say let it rip! Let them figure out what works, and what doesn't. I've read enough studies and researched about other country's health care systems to be persuaded to the side that a medicare-for-all system would save States, businesses and individuals the most money while ensuring everybody has basic health care. But allowing individual states to test this out would finally put the theory and studies to practice... and finally put the worn-out debate to rest.

What is interesting is that this state-based model of "figuring out what works best" is exactly what is happening in regards to the legalization of cannabis. WA and CO are doing the heavy lifting in figuring out a regulatory scheme that works best. And, I'm speculating here, but I think that eventually some parts, or all parts, of what is being learned here and in WA will be implemented nationally. I think that is why Obama's DOJ is letting the state-based legalization of cannabis play out. However, if Prop AA in CO doesn't pass, that could change the ballgame for CO.

Anyway... definitely some interesting times we live in.

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Old 10-23-2013   #55
Old Guy in a PFD
Tucson, Arizona
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Originally Posted by jbolson View Post
While I agree with your first two statements, I disagree with the third. The rich have worked the system, and are winning. The democrats are bought off. Taxing the rich to solve our budget woes should be part of the debate.
Well, it's always fine to gore the other guys ox, but the point is, before we tax more we really have to ask the question;
Are we paying to much for what we get, should we be paying for what we get, and is there a cheaper way to get what we pay for?

Then we can get around to deciding who pays for what, how much they pay, and why.

Just blaming the rich for not paying their share begs the real question.
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Old 10-23-2013   #56
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Huson, Montana
Paddling Since: 1988
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Of course the rich are to blame. They fixed the game. How else could they have gotten richer over the last 5 decades while the rest of us have gotten poorer.
"You're gonna be doin a lot of doobie rolling when youre LIVIN IN A VAN DOWN BY THE RIVER"
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Old 10-23-2013   #57
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Marko, your commerce clause analysis is slightly off. The commerce clause refers to an enumerated power of congress - the power to regulate interstate commerce. Federal laws do not violate the commerce clause, laws either fall under the purview of the commerce clause and are therefore constitutional, or the exceed the scope of the commerce clause and are not justified actions by congress under that clause. But, just because a law is not justified under the commerce clause, doesn't mean it isn't be justified under a different clause. In the ACA case, the plurality held that Congress's power under the commerce clause did not justify the Affordable Care Act. However, this decision doesn't necessarily kill the law, as congress has additional enumerated powers. In this case the court held that the law was justified based on congress's power to tax. (FYI - State laws can violate the commerce clause and be struck down for infringing on the federal government's domain of regulating interstate commerce, but that isn't really an issue here.)

Blutski - I like the libertarian arguments that the government has exceeded its constitutional scope as much as the next guy. Until recently the commerce clause has been interpreted so broadly as to justify basically anything Congress wants to do. Unfortunately for your position, the Supreme Court decided in 1803 that they are the arbiters of the constitution, and they have been so ever since. Their rulings on the constitutionality of a law are as much a part of constitutional law as the words in the constitution. To state that the document itself is the only source of constitutional law is just inaccurate. The ACA is a constitutional exercise of congressional power because the Supreme Court says it is, you might not like it, but that's a fact.
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Old 10-23-2013   #58
Denver, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1999
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Originally Posted by BrianK View Post
Marko, your commerce clause analysis is slightly off.
BrianK, thanks for clarifying/correcting my analysis. Admittedly, I'm a total rookie in regards to Constitutional Law. In fact, I'm headed out the door to my Con Law I class in 5 minutes. We will be studying the US SCT ruling on the ACA in a few weeks. So I will be getting an in depth look at this ruling soon, but I do appreciate your input.


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