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Old 01-17-2008   #81
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Ok D@NE from here on out I'll call you Mojo Nixon. But since you lost your mojo, I think I'll just call you Nixon instead.

Anybody who believes that DoD conspiracies are caused by anything more than incompetence on somebody's part has never worked for the federal government (with the lone exceptions of the 2nd shooter on the grassy knoll, the Rosswell UFOs and Elvis Presley...that shit is totally true). As examples, remember back in the 80's when Reagan was president and on 2 separate occasions we shot down 2 MiGs? Well in the first case the young Lieutenants (24-26 yr old kids) misinterpreted what their radar was telling them, thought they had solved their ROE and flamed the 2 MiGs. In the second incident, the morons (US Navy Pilots) shot down 2 MiGs in the landing pattern. Rarely, check that...NEVER is it as romantic as people make it out to be. Personally I believe that the Gulf of Tonkin thing was sheer incompetence mixed with the fog of stupidity(
As for Iranian boats, those are the games that we play out there. They harass us with ski nautiques and P3's (sold to them by Jimmy Carter) and we fly large strike packages of 30 airplanes right up to the 12 nm point and turnaround or drive ships into disputed areas (law of the sea stuff).
As for anybody's niece in Dubai, I'd be more worried about the EX-Pat ruggers than us, we have to be in bed by midnight.

Okay Nixon your turn to dispute my opinion on the Gulf of Tonkin and please don't go all revisionist on me or I'll bring up Pearl Harbor.

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Old 01-17-2008   #82
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I'd be careful not to confuse Romney with the religious right. I think you may find the evangelists to be more accepting of a woman or african american than a mormon. They're competing with the Mormons for members of their congregations.

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Old 01-17-2008   #83
pnw, Washington
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Can we just call him Dick for short?
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 01-17-2008   #84
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Tricky Dick? Does that make GH G Gordon Liddy?
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Old 01-17-2008   #85
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Remember that the P3s and F-14s sold to Iran by Jimmy Carter were sold to the Shah if Iran, who was propped up by Eisenhower before him (if memory serves). The Shah's government wasn't much of a model of liberty and freedom, and his excesses and brutality were what led to the revolution in 1979.

All foreign policies have long histories of this stuff. The US inherited that problem after World War 2 from the French and British (in various places). It's kinda funny, the French and British created these messes, but they don't have to pay the price of being "the Great Satan" simply because our economy is (was?) more productive.

Iran first came into prominence when Germany invaded Russia during WW2. Because the North Sea run to deliver Lend-Lease supplies to Murmanks in Russia was so dangerous in 1941 because of the U-boat war (which at the time the UK was losing), Roosevelt/Churchill/Stalin decided it was safer to go into the Persian Gulf, deliver supplies to Russia via the Caucuses and Iran. So they simply set up a pro-Ally government.

Politics is strange.
"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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Old 01-17-2008   #86
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Helpful information- thanks.

I guess Romney worries me more because he hasn't been honest about his ties- and so many people don't pay enough attention. I don't think the evangelicals will have enough sway to get Huckabee elected even if he were nominated.

Hopefully Kombat's right- that we'd rather have a female or African American president than a Mormon one.

Originally Posted by heliodorus04 View Post
TMTTR, sincerely, I say you have less to fear from Romney than from Huckabee.

Romney has a record as governor of one of the two or three most liberal states in the Union, where he had no problem allowing gays to marry, no problem with freedom of choice, and no problem with keeping his Mormon faith out of his governor's office.

It is only because he is running for the Republican nomination that he is swinging to the right. His 'real' record is as a liberal Republican who worked with the dominant powers (liberal) in Massachussetts. I'm not in favor of him personally, because he's pulled a "Bill Clinton" and triangulated positions that he thinks will get him the nomination. Since he's done that, it's reasonable to assume that in a general election as the Republican nominee, he'll swing back to the center.

That's the interesting dynamic on the Republican party primary race: the evangelists have a huge effect in deciding the nominee. Once past the primary, they don't have much pull at all (or so I hope, but we shall see in November), and, if those of us in Colorado are at all reflective of the General population, we're uncomfortable with the Focus on the Family brand of Christianity (don't forget there are other forms that aren't so zealous about pursuing God in politics).

Huckabee is far more likely to try to enact his version of political heaven on Earth. If you look around for Huckabee's more obvious allusions to religion in politics, it is fucking scary. Simply scary.

There is no momentum in the GOP side. McCain has won a big one. Huckabee has won a big one. And Romney has won a big one. In South Carolina (the next Republican primary) each has a chance. But no matter who wins there, it will only reflect who has the pull in that one state.

The thing to watch for in coming primary contests is where the populous states go. Florida, California, New York, New Jersey, Ohio, and so forth. States outside of the classical 'deep south' and 'bible belt' will tell you what mainstream democrats and republicans as a whole are looking for.

There's little difference in policy between the Democrats. So what will come down to is whether people want new and fresh face (Obama) or old and safely familiar (Clinton) and who exactly is voting for Edwards instead of the aforementioned (no one really knows whether Edwards' staying the race is helping Obama or Hillary).

The Republican side will show a lot more about the nature of the Republican party today. Is it looking for a more responsible security custodian (McCain), a Chief Executive (Romney) or a new King David on the throne of Israel (Huckabee).

We shall see...

Kombat, quit calling me Dane!
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Old 01-17-2008   #87
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The war’s “defining atrocity”

Stolen from Lex
A credit to his race

January 15th, 2008 by lex -->

In the Washington Post today, left leaning editorialist Richard Cohen demands yet another in a stream of ritual denunciations. It’s a “Sistah Soljah” opportunity apparently, and now it’s Barrack Obama’s turn to disassociate himself from someone of color. The nominee for that honor is Nation of Islam leader and notorious anti-semite Louis Farrakhan.
For the record, Obama has never associated himself with Farrakhan. But never mind. Obama’s church minister’s daughters are the editors of a publication which made Farrakhan their man of the year, last year.
Vladimir Putin could not be reached for comment.
I admit to being unversed in the code language of identity politics, watching it rather as a spectator sport than as a participant. But it seems to me that what Cohen is demanding is not just passionately silly for its four-degrees-of-separation banality, but he’s asking that Obama denounce Farrakhan because, well: Obama is black. Like Farrakhan. And, one assumes, Obama’s minister. And with that skin color apparently comes certain obligations, if you’re to receive the warm glow of approbation from Richard Cohen. Who, by the way, is a four time honorable mention recipient for the Pulitzer Prize.
So there.
I can’t wait to see what’s next. John Edwards will have to offer a ritual denunciation of Melvin Belli next week, while HRC is in the batter’s box to pan Lady Macbeth.
Where will it all end?
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Old 01-17-2008   #88
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The Gulf of Tonkin incident was a lie perpetrated by the highest members of gov't. Calling it incompetence is allowing your gov't to get away with lies. There are plenty of valid facts (The Pentagon Papers) that uncover the lies that were told to the American public about this event - just as there are numerous facts now uncovering many of Bush's past lies.

So many Presidents have lied to us about "reasons" to go to war. They all proclaim it is about "freedom, democracy, and liberty" when in fact it is more about advancing economic and power interests. Let's not forget that Hitler used this same method to get the "good Germans" to believe it was necessary to invade Poland. As a matter of fact he told the German citizens that Poland attacked Germany and it was necessary to defend the country from Polish aggression. He lied, just like many other leaders have done.

Sure you could easily call this a cynical way of thinking. But, could it be possible that people are navie and gullible to believe that their gov't is all righteous and moral and would never lie to them?

Americans need to rise above the old, degenerate concepts of patriotism that entails blindly supporting one's gov't in a time of war.
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Old 01-17-2008   #89
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Sorry wasn't clear enough earlier - initial incident and reporting from Naval Commander's was incompetence driven, what LBJ did with it, something else entirely...although I don't see any reason not to cheer for the home team, after all the Iraqi War wasn't a private's idea (for the record it wasn't mine either).
While it may be sporting to blame President Bush, we killed for Clinton as well...on more than one occasion.
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Old 01-17-2008   #90
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Is there a moral difference to you, Marko, between believing something that turns out to be wrong, and lying?

Sincere question, that.
I actually don't know squat about the Gulf of Tonkin, or much about Vietnam outside of military engagements.

I personally believed that there was a weapons program in Iraq that posed a threat to the united states. And on both those points, I was wrong. I think my President believed both those points, and where data and facts were incomplete, he made decisions that re-affirmed his hunch (that the weapons program existed) and his instinct (that Saddam having them meant they'd get used against our interests).

I've seen the evidence that leaves open the possibility that he deliberately over-emphasized vague evidence of the programs' existence. But no one can ever prove what was going on there was deliberate and calculated to start a war, nor that the war was started to profit cronies in oil. I think believing that based on largely incomplete circumstancial evidence requires one to assume what's in another person's heart, which we really can't do.

I also think it belies a cynicism that I think is counter-productive, because if one is going to say he has the judgement or wisdom or whatever to say "I know what's in someone's heart", that's a scary ego capable of justifying anything, probably.

"self-aggrandizing jackass" - it says it right on the label
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