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Old 07-03-2009   #41
oh yeah
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 535
i'm pretty working class much like kaleb (waterwindyaddayadda) i can't see spending much more than 250K on a three bedroom hose for my family of four and we'd need 1500 sq ft. we bought such a house in salida three years ago for 225K.
i like the concept of SM but who lives there? boaters? anyone on MTN Buzz? It seems a fair number of the houses/ lots are owned by out of town real estate speculators. and the median income in chaffee county can't be much more than 25,000. the area lacks year round employment.
i love the area and would hate to leave for long. and i'd hate to see it turn into a vail. i know it won't have the "look" of vail but it may have the mostly unoccupied home feel of vail. vail proper has a vapid/ transient community that comes in for select weekends in the winter and summer. it's not a place i'd want to raise my kids. i know BV isn't there yet but i'd hate to see it go that direction. salida has retained a great small town feel with funky colorful people and many of it's residents are here for the duration (both summer and winter).
anywhoo, only time will tell and i'll hope for the best.


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Old 07-03-2009   #42
GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 486
Mike C,
I too have earned every dime that I have. While being a kayak bum I also managed to scrape enough cash to put a down payment on a house. One of the ways I did that was by living in my tent for 6 months and a laundry room for the other 6 months. So please check your "I made it on my own attitude" at the door.

As for your comment about not being smart enough to be a lawyer, well, if you are smart enough to be a murse, you are smart enough to me a lawyer. My guess is that you thought it would be easier to get through nursing school as opposed to some other schooling.

Congrats on your kid. I too have children. Both of them were born while I was in law school. Yep, working all day, going to night school and having kids was harder than living in my tent/truck and kayaking every day, but that was my choice.

When you were a guide in the valley did you think that you would be a nurse and that would be one of the ways you could have stayed there? If you lived in BV as a nurse, where did you plan on working? At the hospital in Salida? It too is nice and new (and according to your logic it is evil because good healthcare raises property values). As a nurse, you don't have a job if you don't have patients to see. You need some sort of sustainable economy to create a population base large enough to support you as a nurse. Not that you need South Main, but you need some neighborhoods full of people to come visit your healthcare facility.

As for the idea of $150,000 3br house. Well, you could buy that in BV. It would be in a project built by Dean Hyatt. If you bought one of his houses you would likely have to rebuilt the roof, redo the siding and the insulation and deal with other issues that stem from cheap housing. And when you realize that your house is falling apart, go look for the developer in South America where he is enjoying the high margins from your "affordable" house.

Yes $250,000 is a lot of money. But you get what you pay for. If you want a cheap house at rock bottom prices, move to a suburb in the mid west where farm country was sold to the highest bidder and KB homes was able to build in bulk. But don't expect to find anything built in a neighborhood with quality infrastructure right next to a river. That is a pipe dream that you will never realize.

And here is the kicker. Contrary to what you expect from life, home ownership is not a right. Some people simply do not make enough money, or chose to spend it elsewhere, to own a home. Some people have to rent, some have to cram in smaller houses and some really would like to have a house so in the evenings after work they build it themselves.

Now lets say as a nurse you earn 60k a year and your teaching wife earns 33k a year. That is 93k. Take about 1/3 out for taxes and you get 65,000 of net income per year or $5425 per month. If you have decided to finance your shuttle rig, go on kayaking vacations and spend your money elsewhere, you might have a hard time paying a mortgage. But that is your fault and not SM's or any other developer. If home ownership is high on your priority list, $5425 should get you in the door.

Couple last comments. As for the "lawsuit" that you mentioned. It would not come from me but if you take this attitude into your profession and provide patient care with that attitude, you will find yourself in a lawsuit and maybe without a nursing license. a

SM could have not donated any money to a white water park, it could have not build any trails, it could have kept the river property for customers, it could have build road base streets without curb and gutter instead of asphalt. If SM had done all that, there houses would be cheaper but the place would also be falling apart in 15 years and people like you would be crying that they had been duped by some developer that did the least they were allowed so they could make as much money as possible.

As for your take on the Selby's personal finances. So fucking what if their father busted his ass, made good investments and has some money to show for it. Who fucking cares? That does not inherently make Jed and Katie bad people, lazy people, or trust funders. It simply makes them the children of a hard working individual who was able to save money instead of spend money.


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Old 07-03-2009   #43
pnw, Washington
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 3,404
Mut, I edited your post but only changed the color of the print. It was impossible to read the black on blue.
"Yesterday I was clever and tried to change the world. Today I am wise and try to change myself." -Rumi
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Old 07-03-2009   #44
Durango, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 807
Does this "I'm so poor and stupid everyone should feel sorry for me" routine ever get you anywhere? We really don't feel sorry for you.

Your revolution is over sir. The bums will always lose!
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Old 07-03-2009   #45
The next zone, .
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 1,200
Mut... You the man!!

To skid mark - man if we only ran this town with the perspective of a 4th year raft guide... Funny how you and every other 4th year raft guide knows everything about BV ....

I still cant see how you feel good about your choice to personally attack the Selbys..... I have known the family for going on shit 15 years now and they are one of the most stand up families/people that I have ever had the opportunity of runnin into here in BV.. NO DOUBT that BV is a better town today and will be a better town because of them... Oh yea and I was only born here....

So still to you skid mark... Not one word has come from you to show that you are not the biggest jackass maybe ever to cross the buzz... If you dont like the development that is one thing and make a thread about it... But to come on here and attack the selbys as you have is again one of the lowest if not the lowest thing I have ever seen here on the buzz... I wonder if you feel that your kid is proud of old daddy right now!!!

Last night there were a few of us paddlin in the playpark (if you enjoy this park you should thank the selbys - almost all of that playpark would not be there with out them) and a group of 10 locals were jokin about skid and how dumb this thread was... As we made our way down to my brothers house I thought about how fortunate BV is to have a family like the Selby's to develop this 40 like they have... As mut said deano would have had a different plan....

Also just so you know my perspective is shaped from a family where my great grandfather moved into the Jackson area before it was Jackson, A grandfather who moved to Aspen before it was Aspen and a father who moved to BV before it was well I guess BV.... I have had more truck rides where the story was man I shot that 34" buck righ on that hill before them million dollar houses were there... Or that was the best rabbit field in the valley before that development.... Just the way it goes... This has not changed in 3 generatons and will not change in ours... Great part about what the selbys are doin here in bv is that I hope to tell my kids that "kid where we are kayakin right now is where all of bv dump the trash".... Not a bad improvement..
"I feel better than any other time when I am in the mountains and uh I cant explain it ya know...." - Shawn Farmer..........
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Old 07-03-2009   #46
salida, Colorado
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 283

Since the OP brought the Selby's character into play I thought I would post. As a second year kayaker last year I was paddling the #'s at 1900cfs, I managed to get myself pinned before number 1(right after the stealth puitin) for about 20 seconds, I was able to free myself and roll up, I was with one of my buddies. I almost quite the sport right then. My buddy talked me down and we paddled on.. number 4 which is where I started to lose my mental game...eddied out and there was Jed. He was there with another group and knew my buddy. Jed could tell by the look on my face that I was super nervous, he took the time to walk me through the lines and offered to help with safety, he did this with numbner 5 as well. At that moment it was exactly what I needed. Not trying to put him on a pedestal but he could have laugh and paddled on. He probably doesn't even remember this because it's part of his character and prolly has done it numerous times. Thanks Jed and to the rest of the fam for making SM a relality.

carry on
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Old 07-03-2009   #47
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1996
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 104
On South Main, from Katie

FYI, this Katie posting under Dustin's username.

First of all, it’s great to see all the support out there from the boating community. Thanks for that. It is to all of you that I’m replying and it’s because there are a number of incorrect things being stated here as facts. So here’s the history and facts as we know them.

“For kayakers, by kayakers”… Dustin, Jed, Andre, Mut and I…. all kayakers. 50% of our owners are kayakers. Seems logical that lots of kayakers would like to live on a whitewater park that is also the take out for a nice river run. Unfortunately not all kayakers can afford to live in South Main. Which is why we have been working hard to price things more accessibly. So now our rowhouses start at $244,000 for 2 beds and 2.5 baths ($234,000 with our July special) or $269,000 ($259,000 in July) for 3 beds and 2.5 baths. Plus there are lots of rental options, from reasonably priced studios on up. Not to mention that all of our amenities- river park, park spaces, climbing boulders, etc- are fully public. So whether you live in South Main or not, all are welcome to come enjoy what we think is a pretty fun place to hang out.

Secondly, it is no small point where this all started. This property was getting offers on it and was at serious risk of being permanently privatized. The whole concept started as this crazy dream of how we could save the river corridor from that fate and have it be a permanent public park. It would have been a whole lot easier to do nothing and let some other developer do some gated community and privatize the whole thing- especially the river access.

South Main was never sold as an affordable housing project. What we have said consistently is that we would have housing in a wide range of price, type and size. For example, one of the first homes built was a nice 700 square foot place owned by a super cool kayaking couple. Now another kayaker couple has been renting it for a while. (For the record, we’ve never heard of $75k condos or homes in the $150’s. As a matter of fact, up until the last year, we only sold lots, so it wouldn’t have been possible for us to price these units.) Some homes are much higher end. The one that MC walked through for $465k was built by the homeowner- with his own two hands, and it’s really nice. It’s his prerogative what to sell it for and he actually spent more on it than he’s selling it for. And he’s a really cool boater, teaches tons of people to paddle and works really hard.

We’ve found that many kayakers can be here and choose to be here. All our homeowners are really awesome people, and none are just real estate speculators. They are people who believe in South Main and had a lot of time and patience to build here when there was a ton to figure out. Building a place like this is so challenging- try getting a mortgage on a ‘live-work’ building when the whole system is set up for sprawl. It’s either a housing subdivision for a certain income bracket or it’s a commercial shopping center. Believe me, one of these places does not create itself. It’s an insane amount of work.

In the end, it will add an estimated 800 people to the town. Not 800 homes, 800 people. We knew this was a huge thing to do- a big responsibility. But the land was always zoned for this density. Some developer was going to do it. We could have much more easily put the homes further apart and forgone all the parks, not to mention other cool spaces like the community garden we are in the process of starting.

In terms of green- just because a house doesn’t look like someone’s impression of green doesn’t mean it’s not. As a matter of fact, many people believe that using traditional architecture is one of the most important green elements because it’s timeless and humans have loved it for centuries. So unlike more experimental designs, traditionally inspired buildings are less likely to be torn down and more likely to be maintained and restored (like many of the historic Victorians around here).

With regard to green construction, our home got over 320 points on the Built Green Colorado checklist. 75 points are required. It has on-demand hot water, spray-in foam insulation, cork floors, energy efficient windows, a high efficiency furnace, all cfl bulbs, a woodstove, etc. We also have energy star appliances. We do this because we believe that a house is worth building right. And keep in mind that this translates to much lower utility bills. It would be a whole lot easier to build the sort of homes that hardly outlast their mortgages they are built so poorly. All the homes here are super green. Many are built out of Insulated Concrete Forms which are immensely efficient and use local concrete. We grind our own road base from on-site rock, reducing significantly the embodied energy of our infrastructure. We do community composting using Eddyline’s brew mash. We have dark sky street lighting. We do this kind of stuff because we believe in it.

Also, the walkable, mixed-use layout of South Main allows people to drive much less. Just like any downtown built before the 1940’s, humans can move around between their daily needs on their own two feet.

I’ve hated development in this country my whole life. I grew up in sprawl and lived it every day. We’ve been to so many commissioner and trustee meetings not only for ourselves but to stand up and speak for and against other causes that I could never count them all. For the record, the Trustees, Commissioners and most locals have been super supportive. It’s easy to sit on the sidelines and criticize. It would have been just one more private river corridor, with single family homes in a given price range. Normal in this state, not worth complaining about. When I was considering if I could actually be a developer, with all of its implications, what I kept coming back to was this: if I was actually that passionate about disliking something, what could be better than working to change it, challenging the system and building an awesome place that benefits the public all at the same time?

Katie (Selby) Urban
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Old 07-03-2009   #48
I kayak DH.
Waterwindpowderrock's Avatar
Greater tri cities metro area, Colorado
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 794
It's cool to hear the viewpoint straight from the people that know what's up. It's pretty easy to pick something apart till you hear the other side of things, a bit of empathy never hurts.

I do think that a $250k house is a very real possibility, but the market is what it is & labor is where it's at (well, it's dropping like a freaking rock right now) so you can try but it wouldn't be built the way that Katie described, green features like spray insulation add a lot of $$ to the equation.

Development sucks, but I guess I'd rather have it done by someone who gives a crap rather than some douch from texas or cali.

Crap, got to eat my words again.
Discover Denver, stay there!
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Old 07-03-2009   #49
Join Date: May 2004
Posts: 12
Just got back from climbing with my kids on the new boulder feature in SM. It is soooo cool to watch them grow and have options! Tonight we saw paddlers ripping it up in the hole (didn't ask if they were dirtbag or otherwise), climbers on the rock, bikers on the Midland, folks grilling in the park, and lots of happy people eating and drinking at Eddyline. No attitude, no skids. Just a good time being had by all right here in my right-wing, christian, redneck town. Thank you Selby's for having the vision and fortitude to make an already awesome place to live even better!

MCSkid, I hope that you can see a future that you believe in and be a part of making it happen as well.


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Old 07-03-2009   #50
Buena Vista, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by MCSkid View Post
worked at runners from '89 to '06, used to live in the butte, had to move to the front range(too dumb to know how to change my profile), never owned a place there, just rented floor space. should be enough info for ya harv.

and ya the place was definitely pitched as being affordable/green/sustainable. lots in the $30,000's, $75,000 condos, homes in the $150's. the only thing sustainable about that place is those houses will last a long time, just throwing a few so called green appliances in does not make something green(if you want to see affordable/green check out the project that solar village homes is building in saldia. don't know why the kids couldn't do something like that, probably would've attracted the wrong kind of folks). the mayor, town council, county commissioners and the locals(not the 1% of you who boat) were pretty pissed when the kids fliped the project to high end. lucky for the kids that those bv red necks do business on a hand shake and not in writting. when you figure that south main will about double the size of bv, and with the houses being in the $350,000 to $650,000 range it will radiaclly change to character of beuny. for the worse in my opinion, but it should please most of you that moved there and didn't like it being such a backwoods redneck town.
so ya i might be an ignorant dumb ass hateful jerk but that doesn't change the fact that south main looks pompus as hell. oh an jv, don't know if your gonna be able to hold on to that redneck username much longer, the way things are changing in beuny, or should i say beuna vista(spanish pronuciation of course!)

I am going to throw my $.02 into the ring here. As a business owner I know the risks of participating and taking a stand in a public forum but I would be irresponsible if I didn't.

Eddyline Restaurant and Brewery was a concept born in early '95 back when I was a struggling geology grad student who spent a long nite with the brewer of Carver's after climbing in the San Juans. I wanted to live in a small mountain mountain town and knew my college degree wasn't going to do it. Having graduated high school from Reserve, NM (grad class was 11 people) I appreciated the core values found in a small town and community. Well I finished grad school worked multiple jobs, was laughed at uncountable number of bankers but somehow through a combo of student loans, credit cards, flea market sales, we were able to open in the only chance we had in Socorro, NM but still kept the vision of a river town.

Fast forward to spring of '08. Man were we f'ing psyched when we got our letter of credit for our project!!! Bummer it was from Lehman brothers. We were relieved when we got our second letter from guess who? Wachovia. Hmmm... Up a stinky creek without a paddle; pardon the pun. Well, before settling on South Main we tried to buy the old State Hwy building. Talk about freaking overpriced!!! We couldn't get the price below a million $$$ and renovation would easily be another $500,000. Just not feasible to do enough sales in BV to justify. Well we looked at other lots (all very pricey) construction costs out of control (relative to cheap NM) and we were out of options. I loved the SM concept of being a walkable neighborhood but very leary of being off the beaten path. However I trusted the Selby's vision, my own imagination, and most importantly my gut feeling and started negotiations with Jed.

Jed (and the rest of the team to a lesser degree) bent over backwards to make Eddyline happen!!! First, like anything in real estate, all prices are negotiable. We worked backwards from a proforma that was realistic for the town, took out construction costs from a max debt number, and determined the max lot price. This was all at Jed's suggestion in order to make sure this happened. The lot that Eddyline was built on was sold with very little if no profit. Then we got another unpleasant surprise: the selected builder who had been very convincing he could build it for <$175/sq-ft all of a sudden came in at >$250/sq-ft! At the same time we had barely secured financing from Colo East only because of the president, Dave Reyher, who also could see the SM vision. The problem was it was based on the builders estimate of $175 sq-ft. We were dead once again.

Jed et al., stepped up again. They told us they would build it for our budget. This was without having even done a solid estimate. No profit margin again but rather believing it was critical to have a place like ours. I was the contractor for our Socorro Springs and have built my own houses and have done construction since high school. I only say this because I know what is involved and Jed's committment was huge. Way over and above. To top it off right after getting our final letter of credit from Colo East they wanted to rescind it unless we could start building within 14 days. The previous builders runaround cost us dearly timewise. November 4 South Main builders broke ground with the hopes of opening by paddlefest, May 22. For a comm building this was an incredibly insanely tight schedule. Especially for a building company who had zero commercial experience (as a company).

Well Jed and company made sure their crew worked overtime (thanks Rick) through the winter despite shitty weather. These guys busted their ass and Jed was able to motivate his crew to make it happen. I personally worked long hours their as well. It was very rewarding working with such good folk.

Long story short (sorry for the length) Jed and Katie's character along with the rest of their crew are impeccable. If you really have a tight budget but want to live in South Main they will bend over backward for you if they know you are dedicated to the development. Look at what is there now, what will be there, and then imagine a gated timeshare with no river access in its place. I vote for south main again and again. It is an awesome contribution to the town, the county, the state, and the country. Let's celebrate the American spirit of entrepreneurship tomorrow, 4th of July, by appreciate the risk that the Selby's et al. have taken and are still taking to make one little place a bit nicer for us all to enjoy.

Thanks for letting me share my experience. Cheers,
Mic Heynekamp, brewer, keg washer, owner
Eddyline Restaurant and Brewery

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