Republican hypocrisy on health care? - Mountain Buzz
 

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Old 07-10-2017   #1
 
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Republican hypocrisy on health care?

Can someone with a republican bent explain why the Republican party has any credibility left about Health Care?

Republicans bashed ObamaCare saying it was awful and ruinous. Now, it doesn't appear so bad. And they can't find something better.

Health care is complicated. We elect representatives to responsibly dig into details that we can't. Looks like Republican's didn't do their job. Looks like they care more about winning and spin than helping.

If you say the Democrats are just as bad, I think you are just punting. For one thing, the Democrats passed ObamaCare knowing it would cost many of them their jobs, which it did.

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Old 07-11-2017   #2
 
cedar city, Utah
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I have a moderate bent and was actually against the ACA initially. I ultimately benefit from it with a pre-existing condition and some other legislation that passed over the years. My initial criticisms came true in a way that I will lay out below. My comments below are informed by living one in of the reddest states and in a region with one of the most stringent political adherence to the concept of rugged individualism I have ever witnessed.

First, I would recommend folks separate the rhetoric of the republican leadership from the values of most of its members. If you can do that then I believe the republican stance isn't hypocritical when they clearly wanted to repeal the ACA from the get go. The ACA is one of the largest expansions of federal government and civilian entitlements we have seen in decades. That flies in the face of traditional conservative logic (ie, pre-Christian coalition platforms).

Two, the sustainability of the ACA was undermined by the flawed way it was passed (ie, budget reconciliation) which rankled the ire of most Republicans.

Where the waters get murky and what was likely a known benefit of the ACA happening...once Americans receive an entitlement it becomes extremely difficult to revoke. This is especially true for fundamental needs like financial security late in life (SS) and now healthcare in our modern world (ACA). Republicans learned really fast that they can't just repeal the ACA like their ideology dictates because they know they will lose many of the very people that have driven their success the last few elections. Now they are stuck appealing to that contingency without abandoning their hardcore base.

That leaves us in the muddled mess we are currently in.

I don't see most Republicans as hypocrites so much as I see it's leadership as grossly inept at the finer points of governing. They allowed rhetoric and popular sentiment (within their party) to undermine the complexities of managing a liberal (classic terminology, not partisan alignment) democracy. Any solution forwarded thus far clearly leaves millions of citizens without a health insurance plan they have become accustomed to and its historical base scratching their head about "big government"

Its going to be sloppy for a while but I am hearing a ton of republicans I know admitting we are logically heading for a single payer system. That assumes the Republican leadership continues to act as they have the past few years, which I think is a given. None of this should be a major shock as its just a realignment with the fact that Republicans were largely on board with health insurance reform in the 90s.
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Old 07-11-2017   #3
 
Manitou Springs, Colorado
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Restrac, You're fucking kidding right? Obama care was first introduced as a single payer system. The republicans made it exactly what it is today, now they're the ones bitching the most. WTF??
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Old 07-11-2017   #4
 
cedar city, Utah
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shannon s View Post
Restrac, You're fucking kidding right? Obama care was first introduced as a single payer system. The republicans made it exactly what it is today, now they're the ones bitching the most. WTF??
I clearly see the finger prints of both parties all over the ACA.

I think my republican friends and acquaintances just see the inevitable writing on the wall. But they are very vague on a timeline when they think leadership will capitulate. And clearly their ideas are educated guesses at best.
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Old 07-12-2017   #5
 
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Thanks for the thoughtful comments.

I would argue that the world we live in today, with huge population and complex economies, we can't be purists looking for simple solutions. The free market doesn't work perfectly in our complex society and health care is a good example.

But, my main point is that the Republican leadership is being deceptive. They said ObamaCare was awful but now they can't find something better. We aren't having a fair political discussion on who can improve the country.
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Old 07-12-2017   #6
 
Shingle Springs, California
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WTF, why bring this issue up on a whitewater site. Don't you have any real people to piss off and make argue with each other.




Let me try and highjack this thread. I am putting on the Main Salmon on Friday the 21st. What will the flow be???? Winner will get a prize.
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Old 07-12-2017   #7
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Hmm. Some interesting food for thought on this thread.

We do usually have our worst arguments when we discuss politics and religion.

The flow shall be between 1 and 29 feet.
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Old 07-13-2017   #8
 
Denver, Colorado
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Restrac ,

That mindset of rugged/rabid individualism is at the heart of many of our problems.It is admirable to a point,but has been carried way too far.This notion that gov. can't do anything right and business can do no wrong is incredibly misguided.Nothing illustrates this more than our healthcare system's problems: the private sector has no incentive to reduce cost. It is at odds with their reason for being,to maximize profit.Other countries have PROVEN that gov .managed healthcare can provide comparable, or better ,results for around 10% of GDP ( vs.our 17/18%). You would think the uber pro business party would welcome taking healthcare responsibility off employers,ie single payer.Unnecessary ideological barriers are hindering our ability to deal with these problems.
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Old 07-13-2017   #9
 
cedar city, Utah
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I personally think we can find a solution that provides for better healthcare. I just don't know what it is.

I understand the analysis of others countries and fully recognize how poorly American healthcare ranks amongst other industrialized nations. But most of the countries we look at with single payer aren't apples to apples comparisons. Our Constitution is radically different than say Canada or European nations. I personally don't know how we reconcile our Constitution with a single payer system given its explicit limitations on the role of the federal government. Conservative ideology has a strong foundation and argument there.

I also know the percentage GDP comparisons and personally know how debilitating medical debt can be for citizens. But have you known a resident of Canada? The #s we hear aren't always the most accurate representation of true cost. Beyond income taxes my Canadian friends regularly complain about the cost of living because of the taxes levied on goods. You start to understand where the money comes from when you buy beer in Canada. They definitely seem to control cost better but citizens still pay for services one way or another.

There is also the issue of how the US has handled its existing single payer systems. You have a high functioning healthcare for Congress and a disfunctional, ineffecient VA for the military. The powerful and rich get high quality and the average Joe fights for scraps. That can be fixed but do you actually see that happening given the hyper-partisan nature of politics right now? I mean, even a bill passed and survived Constitutional review, we still have the whims of annual budget fights.

I definitely think we need to either maintain or expand healthcare regulation and think a better, possibly single payer, system is possible and worth fighting for. But I also can't ignore the legal, historical, structural (population size aline) and cultural differences that our huge country has in when compared to places like Europe and Canada with single payer.
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Old 07-13-2017   #10
 
Denver, Colorado
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Fair points Restrac ,except the one about population.I don't think scaling up from Germany's 85 million people to our 325 million is as complicated as many other aspects of the problem.I would also dispute ( not you personally) the Republican idea that their strict constructionist interpretation of the Constitution is the correct one.If it is ,then we are being hobbled in solving contemporary problems by an outdated document/mentality too rigid to adapt to modern conditions.Even Thomas Jefferson thought constitutions should be redrafted periodically.

If you \anybody is interested in an analysis of the division ofbetween more traditional moderate conservative's values and the policies the current crop of hardline Republican politicians favor ,and how it got this way, read John Dean's"Conservatives Without Conscience".Dean considers himself an old guard Barry Goldwater style conservative and outlines how the post-Reagan Republican party was co-opted by power hungry no holds barred extremists like Gingrich, Delay,and Rove.
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