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View Poll Results: How many buzz'rds also ride dirt bikes?
Never have... 32 40.51%
Every so often... 15 18.99%
Avid two wheel, mud spitt'n mutant... 32 40.51%
Voters: 79. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-10-2008   #41
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 66
Redneck (not yelling),

I guess I missed that this was in the Sledneck forum because I open the buzz in the home/portal page. It has the posts on one side and the forums on the other (which I don't look at). Sorry, does that make me as stupid as the people that can't find wilderness areas? I guess I didn't notice the date either. In any case I find it an interesting topic.

"Third now for attacking me on a business level...You know nothing of my businesses or multiple corporations that I either own or run.. My reputation and my families reputation not only in Buena Vista area but in all of Colorado speaks for its self. If you want to attack me, my family, or my business practices further I dont believe this is the place.. If you want to meet PM me and I would be happy to meet face to face to talk about things.."

Not trying to attack you, your family, or your business practices. just pointing out that you may be biased on these issues. My opinion, nothing else.

I have met you. I boated with you on Bailey a few years back. I think I might even have had dinner with you and your business partner at that steak joint in BV. I don't think you are a bad guy in fact I usually agree with your comments as I stated in my first post. Just trying to have a conversation here. I always try to look at both sides of the coin but your arguments on this issue feel defensive and angry. I am trying to see the reason, other that "hey there are other places to go" and "you use more gas driving from Denver than I do on my sleds/bikes" on why it is ok for people to use gas powered vehicles on public lands.. Also interested on how a balance would work.

Also why do you hate hippies so bad?

I'll see you on the Ark. Hopefully you won't run my ass over.

Have fun on your trip.

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Old 04-10-2008   #42
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 246
I think we are in need of a reality check.

Off road recreation can be VERY destructive. Illegal trails that cut across slopes without erosion mitigation can create disasterous slides and/or choking runnoff that pollutes streams and eventually rivers.

The difference between an oil and gas lease on public land and off road recreation is the level of accountability.

If a oil and gas operator violates a land management agency's rules, the land managment agency can cite the specific operator months or even years after the violation takes place.

But if a group of motorcyclists tear up a mountainside they could be a hundred miles away before the authorities locate the violation. At that point, the violators get away without a citation.

In some areas, OHVs are one hundred times more destructive than oil and gas. That being said, both can be done without horrendous consequences.

Addressing the notion that a person cannot oppose oil and gas yet ride a dirt bike: that is dangerous logic.

That would be like saying a person couldn't support clean, carbon-free, renewable energy and oppose dam building.

I don't like it.

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Old 04-10-2008   #43
Aspen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 377
Originally Posted by RDNEK View Post
Many, many, many, times I have said that if a motor bike or sled is going to ruin your entire day find a wilderness and recreate there..

If anyone out there is flat out too stupid to find said wilderness area pm me and I will shoot you out a list of every one in Colorado and Wyo..

Great part is that they are spread out over the entire states and you would have to be a total moron not to be able to find one..There is only like 5 million acres here in Colorado alone..

This is a great example of how these extreme nut job "outdoor purists" choose to work.. Log onto a sledneck and dirtbike forum.. Start a fight that was posted for STOKE... Then run and hide behind the man when confronted..

Cowardly flat out cowardly...

This is the reason that I will not support any new wilderness area's.. Some day the extremists will see that they are doing more harm for their cause than good..

Seems a lot of extremists choose to operate the this way.. Create a problem or do something that is way out of line in the BC... Then call the result a problem that needs solving.. Since these types seem incapable of anything other than creating problems they turn to big Govt for solution, add one more layer to the onion, then the bitch about the outcome..

So I guess if you want to SOLVE this problem and if you have the mental capacity find a wilderness area... Problem solved....

Like I said above if you cant seem to find a wilderness area you are too stupid to be in the BC anyway..
REDNEK, was your reply directed at my post? I think I answered a question on how easy it is to meet other riders and what is an appropriate bike for a beginner. When It comes to added wilderness I share your view to an extent. I am tired of loosing vehicle, dirtbike and mountain bike access to places I have gone for decades. Around Aspen, we have at least four proposed wilderness areas in addition to our existing wilderness. I love the old wilderness areas and I do use them when I do not want noise, but will definitly oppose the new proposals since I feel they are too restrictive and elitist. There is even a new mountain bike group actively opposing the "hidden gems" wilderness proposal, and most of the mtn bikers I know consider themselves environmentally aware. I own a KTM 300 and an RMK 800 (both 2 stroke) for ski access so I don't really qualify as an "outdoor purist" or "extremist" As far as being a coward and picking fights and hiding behind the man, WTF are you talking about! How about not hidding behind your web name and counting on annonimity. I'll go first. My name is John Gloor and I can be reached at 970-920-7995. Looking forward to a rational discussion with you.
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Old 04-10-2008   #44
Aspen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 377
REDNEK, My apologies. I misunderstood your response to the whole thread and took your reply as an attack on my entry which appears chronologically right above yours. My invite to a phone discussion still stands as I feel we are of similar opinions. I regret my defensive and impulsive response. John.
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Old 04-10-2008   #45
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 10

I find it interesting that so far the debate (if you can call it that) over wilderness on this thread has been framed as one between silent, human-powered purists and the thrill and adventure of motorized backcountry users. Either perspective is solely human-based. Is that why we designate land as wilderness, for human recreation? It seems to me we should be managing our public lands for all life, not just people.

Motorized recreation disrupts natural ecosystems. Period. There need be no debate here. Chemical pollution and noise are the major players in isolated systems. Yes CO2 contributions to global warming are a negative, but as already stated, we all contribute. Recent research has shown that bird density and nesting success are reduced along ATV trails. Stress hormone levels increase in grouse and ungulates. Species sensitive to disturbance (some bird species, gleaning bats, and some owls for example) leave with minimal recreation use. The intensity and use of trail systems is a new pressure on ecosystems that has not been in place long enough for complete population impacts to be felt.

That is the major difference between wilderness and non-wilderness NF-- wilderness contains a more intact ecology, with more places for the most specialized and fickle animal and plant species.

The current biodiversity crisis on this planet, unlike others in the past, is not a result of asteroids, or volcanoes, or major climate change (although that part is starting) it is because we have decided that humans come first. Everywhere. Sprawl in the Front Range is easy to categorize as a cost of increasing population in Colorado and the world but that same growth extracts a price from our last wild places. There is a connection between 5000 square foot, energy-guzzling castle homes, 10 mpg SUVs, acres of green lawn in the high-mountain desert, and the self-righteous attitude that we are all granted the right to recreate by any means that brings us pleasure.

I suppose, in the end, my point is this: ride your bikes, high-mark your snow machines but know that it comes at a cost to other organisms. Now, if you're like every other god-fearing, red-blooded American you won't give a sh@t about other critters-- what did Darwin say, Survival of the fittest? Thats it. Stupid, weak animals
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Old 04-10-2008   #46
GWS, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1992
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 486

I agree with some of the points in your post. Why do you leave out driving an automobile? Do you think that Kayaking comes at a cost to other organisms? Do you care more about other critters than a dirt biker or sledder?

I'm not indicting you. I just thought I'd ask instead of coming to my own conclusion.
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Old 04-10-2008   #47
Aspen, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1994
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 377
splatdog, in my OPINION, wilderness is a place humans don't go. There can be no doubt that people affect their environment by partaking in it and wilderness is supposed to be natural (unnaffected by man) Realistically/legally it has been degraded to non-mechanized while incorporating old roads, mines, towns. What is so wild about this? I have heard of stress studies on elk in which a silent hiker or biker suddenly appearing a short distance from the animal results in higher stress/panic than the gradual, audible approach of a dirtbike. I have seen deer grazing on the rifle range at Basalt CO seemingly ignorant of the blasts of guns 50 yards away. I do many of the "silent purist" activities (kayak, BC ski, climb, bike, hunt, hike) and I also dirtbike. I am constantly pointing out to my friends that they burn five to ten times the gas I do driving to Westwater or Cross mountain vs a day riding dirtbikes. I suppose I object to your second paragraph. Motorized recreation AND any human recreation disrupts natural ecosystems. Don't let the un-motorized off too lightly as their environmental impact can easily be as great as a RESPONSIBLE dirtbiker (not an oxymoron). All in all, you brought out many valid points.
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Old 04-10-2008   #48
Fort Collins, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1993
Join Date: Mar 2004
Posts: 10

Mut: I was focusing on the thrust of the thread-- off-road motorized rec but you are totally right. In fact, the evidence for roads (cars and trucks) reducing biodiversity is rock solid. The relevant point for this discussion I think is that the intermittent disturbance of ATV trails produces many similar effects.

Does kayaking come at a cost to other critters?: Likely-- although noise and chemical pollution are the major players, so the disturbance of a kayaker moving down a river corridor is certainly significantly less (I'm avoiding the CO2 argument here)... interestingly, great blue heron numbers and nesting success has been plummeting in GTNP and around Jackson Hole in general... considering the heavy traffic on the rivers in the area (including the scenic section in the park) flushing could be partly responsible... we've all had the experience of pushing birds downstream for miles.

Do I put bikers and sledders (you mean humans, don't you?) above other animals... if I said I considered them equal even that would be controversial in our culture... I believe all life is equally valuable. Indict away. But, I still think frying up the tenderloins of a elk after a good hunt is a hard experience to beat To me its about understanding our impacts and deciding that the cost is worth it. To me, if a common duck is impacted by my kayaking (but the population is doing fine), so be it, but if there was a river where an endemic endangered river otter lived that I would disturb by boating there, I'd find another creek.

ZGjethro: Your major point seems to be 'habituation'. First, its hard to judge ecosystem impacts from one or two species. Deer not moving from a rifle range doesn't mean there isn't convincing evidence that increased background sound levels effect biological processes. Sensitive individuals of a particular species often leave disturbed areas first leaving a more tolerant subset of the population behind (this has been shown with dolphins and motorized boat use). Also, animals are constantly balancing a cost/benefit equation, if predation is low, food and shelter high, ignoring a know neutral stimuli could prove an acceptable answer. Lastly, habituation is not without costs, as animals learn to ignore a particular frequency range (in this case from gun fire) they are less likely to attend to biologically-relevant stimuli in that range in the near future (might not apply in your example but does in others).

CO2: Throughout the thread I've read arguments about frontrangers and skiing and slopers and sledding. Lets compare apples to apples. The true comparison is how much gas does a sledneck use from the range vs. the slope. Range = more for everything. The root of these problems lies deeper than the motorized rec debate--- each of our lives is an entire equation, ride your bike, buy local, live small and green, then drive your frontranger subaru to the mountains (yes I have one) to recreate.

Choose how and where you do so with intelligence and purpose. If you choose to sled or bike, great, just do so with an informed mind and a conscious decision as to impact, same goes for non-motorized rec (this is for you ZGjethro). In Europe, backcountry ski trails have become so crowded that similar ATV trail effects are starting to crop up along hut routes.

Its going to be complicated, but the only way to save other critters is going to be to designate as much (CONNECTED) wilderness as possible.

P.S. I love the dirtbike track next to I25, perfect place
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Old 04-11-2008   #49
caspermike's Avatar
Bozeman, Montana
Paddling Since: 1999
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 5,507
lets relate sex to eating oranges

you people try to relate topics to much

kayaking compared to a atv or dirtbike? high marking some fucking hill and almost loosing access to one part of land up here because you people do not give a rats ass about anybody else property. tearing it up for your amusement.

a kayak down a river is like a small log it has 0 effect. have you swam in a fishing hole? it will not kill the fish and how would kayaking be anyworse. the footprint left behind is practically none because you are on the water.

look around next time you are biking or sledding how many animals do you see? now go hiking how many did you see? its a direct correlation. shit as much as colorado is being leveled for houses and industry you would think you people would be about more wilderness areas.
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Old 04-11-2008   #50
I'm wrong 50% of the time
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RFV, Colorado
Paddling Since: 1977
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 857
To all that have posted, Thank you for your interesting and thought provoking posts. This is truly what the buzz should be about. We can agree to disagree and have intelligent conversation about topics that we are passionate about. In order to learn and be informed about topics such as these, much thought and discussion needs to happen. You all make some valid points for and against mechanized use vs. human powered pursuits.

As conscious person, every time I walk out my door (and inside the house) I have to be mindful of the decisions that I make regarding energy use. be it heating the house to 65"F or deciding to drive, hitch hike or take the bus to the ski slope, or to go to the store in the car solely for a Gatorade. It's about doing what you love in a setting that you enjoy, and trying to help those area flourish as you do so.

I'm done with the argument that my snowmobile habit is any worse than your I-70 habit. buy local, conserver water, recycle, educate children, volunteer, ride your bike more, etc... These are ideas to live by.

Claimer: Someone that makes a claim that they have been there and done that, can do anything you can do better than you. I hate "claimers"
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