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Old 08-14-2012   #21
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Based on your numbers above I was right...150 million or so people don't work. I'm shocked that those three companies combined only made 7.4 million! Is that right, their ROA and ROI totally suck who would invest in these companies?

I'm blaming no one but the government for their largesse and stealing the wealth of American people through inflation and lining their own pockets with tax dollars and cadillac retirement and health care plans which they exempt themselves of Obama Care. You blame rich people, why can't our country spend within it's limits. As far a people on unemployment and welfare, they should have to work on public works projects if physically able(which brings up another issue how did 80,000 people go on ssi disability last month) and be paid somewhere in the range of minimum wage to earn their money. Maybe this would spur them to take a job underemployed vs. live of the government and do nothing.
No one needs to invest in those companies. The operate on the tax payer's dime. They profit because of government (over)spending. And thanks for pointing that out. it was 7.4 billion. My bad.

I'm confused. You claimed that 250 million don't pay taxes after I agreed with you that 150 million don't work which is normal. In reality, 250 million not paying taxes is a ridiculously false number. You might want to read your circular arguments before committing to them. So you agree that 150 million don't work and aren't expected to work or you think 150 million don't work and should be working? Please clarify just exactly what your claim is about the people fleecing the tax payer. I think we're all not following your line of thought. Why don't you go find out why 80,000 people did you you think they did. My guess is they didn't do what you think they did because your data is wrong just like your other claims.

So, you truly think that the government caused the collapse? Funny that most major economic collapses in the history of the US can be linked to the private sector. Maybe this one will be the fault of the government. I don't disagree that people abuse the system. I just acknowledge that more people abuse the system like defense contractors. What is the difference between a defense contractor pulling down millions of dollars in pay from the tax payer and a shlep claiming SS benefits? Do you truly believe that the private sector can never be faulted?

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Old 08-14-2012   #22
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
As far a people on unemployment and welfare, they should have to work on public works projects if physically able
BTW: Your plan above? It's called socialism and FDR did just that. Do you really want to create social work programs? Meaning, if you get fired and can't find a job you're going to let the government tell you where to work?
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Old 08-14-2012   #23
 
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On topic:
9 Depressingly Kooky Facts About Paul Ryan

and this grammatical train wreck:
Is Paul Ryan for or against Ayn Rand? - CNN.com
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Old 08-14-2012   #24
 
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Fucking hilarious wavester! Clinton balancing the budget...he was brought kicking and screaming to the table and finally signed this after the republican controlled houses shut the government down and were villianized for it! Talk about revisionist history!

Hojo, I nver blamed the government for the catastophic housing failure it is squarely on Wall Street investment banks and the rating agencies that not only didn't do their jobs but I think were criminally liable.

As for Roosevelt, at least he made people work for their money he was also against public servant unions which are partially the reason for government excess and income disparity between private and public sector today.
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Old 08-14-2012   #25
 
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Fucking hilarious wavester! Clinton balancing the budget...he was brought kicking and screaming to the table and finally signed this after the republican controlled houses shut the government down and were villianized for it! Talk about revisionist history!

Hojo, I nver blamed the government for the catastophic housing failure it is squarely on Wall Street investment banks and the rating agencies that not only didn't do their jobs but I think were criminally liable.

As for Roosevelt, at least he made people work for their money he was also against public servant unions which are partially the reason for government excess and income disparity between private and public sector today.
I believe the private sector practices the age old (we're talking back thousands of years) practice of privatizing gains and socializing losses. Income disparity exists because those at the top (of anything) keep the gains and lay off the workers to preserve those gains if loss is a possibility. CEO salaries rebound first, employee salaries rebound last if ever. It goes to the heart of valuing labor for their worth. That's my opinion.

Here's food for thought: If we want to pay down the debt we would technically have to run a surplus. A balanced budget amendment, unless debt repayment was built in, would not achieve that since a surplus isn't a balanced budget. Any surpluses in this day in age would have the tax payers demanding a refund. Kind of fascinating.
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Old 08-14-2012   #26
 
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Originally Posted by hojo View Post
No one needs to invest in those companies. The operate on the tax payer's dime. They profit because of government (over)spending. And thanks for pointing that out. it was 7.4 billion. My bad.

I'm confused. You claimed that 250 million don't pay taxes after I agreed with you that 150 million don't work which is normal. In reality, 250 million not paying taxes is a ridiculously false number. You might want to read your circular arguments before committing to them. So you agree that 150 million don't work and aren't expected to work or you think 150 million don't work and should be working? Please clarify just exactly what your claim is about the people fleecing the tax payer. I think we're all not following your line of thought. Why don't you go find out why 80,000 people did you you think they did. My guess is they didn't do what you think they did because your data is wrong just like your other claims.

So, you truly think that the government caused the collapse? Funny that most major economic collapses in the history of the US can be linked to the private sector. Maybe this one will be the fault of the government. I don't disagree that people abuse the system. I just acknowledge that more people abuse the system like defense contractors. What is the difference between a defense contractor pulling down millions of dollars in pay from the tax payer and a shlep claiming SS benefits? Do you truly believe that the private sector can never be faulted?
Hojo, last time i checked all three of the corporations you mentioned were exactly that, corporations and listed on the exchanges where individuals, pension groups and others all benefit by investing in and receiving returns for said investment. As a matter of fact if you have a 401k you are probably benefiting based on a return on investment. Unless Obama recently took over the companies like he did GM-and that's going very well isn't it. I believe the government also considers them people right-isn't that what you lefties all have your panties in a bind over? They may have the majority of their business as government contracts but also have private contracts as well.
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Old 08-14-2012   #27
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Hojo, last time i checked all three of the corporations you mentioned were exactly that, corporations and listed on the exchanges where individuals, pension groups and others all benefit by investing in and receiving returns for said investment. As a matter of fact if you have a 401k you are probably benefiting based on a return on investment. Unless Obama recently took over the companies like he did GM-and that's going very well isn't it. I believe the government also considers them people right-isn't that what you lefties all have your panties in a bind over? They may have the majority of their business as government contracts but also have private contracts as well.
Well now that's interesting. So, what you're saying that since they're a corporation it's ok for them to capitalize on government (over)spending. That makes me think. Why would I want government spending to be curbed if their spending directly influences GDP and helps my 401K? Come to think of it, based on your idea above that these companies are profitable because the government is their majority customer, the government could go a long way to helping out the economy by boosting sales. Hell, I think they should try it with companies like... wait. did you say GM?

GM Posts Record $7.6-Billion Profit - ABC News

That's ok Mr. C. we will always disagree. The difference I see in myself is I'm not so quick to blame everything on one president or even two. We've had a national debt since just after Andrew Jackson's presidency and few surplus budgets. I'm not so short sighted to think that pure capitalism is any more perfect than any other system. Our government has issues, yes. I blame the voters first and the money second since it's usually what gets the voters to start spreading false information like "Look how GM turned out" GM turned out rather well and it's all due to Romney's idea of giving them money, right?
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Old 08-14-2012   #28
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
I was throwing that number out based on 50% of the population, obviously some of the population are youths who dont pay taxes but 50% of working americans don't. I believe "working" is around 100 million. So my figure of 150 million was off I should say over 250 million don't pay taxes.



4% pay over 80% of all taxes. Flaco, you're the ignorant one for spouting pro obama bs which is bankrupting this country. What is your solution...oh yeah tax the rich which under Obama's plan brings in 200 billion more. That's nothing when it comes to the yearly deficiti you douche!
You're ignorant and/or dishonest, in that you're parroting the typical neocon line of conflating "taxes" without regard to income taxes versus payroll taxes versus state taxes. Incidentally, the 85% of the SS & FICA taxes is paid by the bottom 90% because of the $110K wage limits. So to say that those folks are paying "no taxes at all" is monumentally idiotic.

Just about everyone pays taxes of some sort - even Unemployment Benefits are taxable. As a result, all income groups pay significant taxes (see attachment).

Quote:
Of all the new financial wealth created by the American economy between 1983 and 2004, fully 42% of it went to the top 1%. A whopping 94% went to the top 20%, which of course means that the bottom 80% received only 6% of all the new financial wealth generated in the United States during the '80s, '90s, and early 2000s (Wolff, 2007).
This is the summation of supply side economics. If the wealthy are paying a much larger percentage of the overall INCOME taxes in this country over the last 30 years, it's because the they have acquired a disproportionally higher percentage of the wealth as a tradeoff.

Question: I have a company worth exactly $1M. I offer your small group of investors a chance to buy 90% of the shares for $500,000. Do you take it?

Easy call - you're getting an immediate 55% premium over some large group of shareholder schmoes who are paying $500,000 for 10% of the shares.

Well, the reality is that while the wealthiest 5% pay about 50% of the income taxes, they also own about 90% of the overall wealth in this country. So let's dispense with the plight of the set upon 5% of this country.

Moreover, that is up from about 67% in the 1950's. While some might argue "Hey, that's captitalism", history will tell you that it's economically unsustainable and will also lead to societal decay and eventually revolution. And then everyone loses, even the wealthy. I'm all for competition & rewarding hard work and risk, but the end-game for supply side economics & mass deregulation is a guaranteed disaster. See 2001-2008.
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Old 08-14-2012   #29
 
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The government still own a large amount of GM stock and at today's prices if they sold it would be around 50 billion loss. I'm not surprised GM is posting profits after the $7,000 government rebate on Volts and all of the government money greasing it and it's subsidiaries.

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle [Michigan Capitol Confidential]

This article points to how much help Government Motors has had.


Also I didn't thing social security or medcare were taxes kinda like Obama Care isn't. They may have changed and now called it Payroll tax but isn't it an investment in your future? Roosevelt never sold it as a tax.
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Old 08-15-2012   #30
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
The government still own a large amount of GM stock and at today's prices if they sold it would be around 50 billion loss. I'm not surprised GM is posting profits after the $7,000 government rebate on Volts and all of the government money greasing it and it's subsidiaries.

Chevy Volt Costing Taxpayers Up to $250K Per Vehicle [Michigan Capitol Confidential]

This article points to how much help Government Motors has had.


Also I didn't thing social security or medcare were taxes kinda like Obama Care isn't. They may have changed and now called it Payroll tax but isn't it an investment in your future? Roosevelt never sold it as a tax.
Paul Ryan voted for TARP which made investment with no risk for rich people. Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the rest of us. Bailouts are bad no matter who does them.
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