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Old 10-21-2008   #51
Mad Scientist/Creeker
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Kev - no offense taken and, would I really kick you in the nuts... well maybe but truly no disrespect was meant. Your party affiliation is 1) obvious and 2) ludicrous at this point in time. I entered into this thread to make the point that there really is no argument here. Most governments are made up of both capitalistic and socialistic components as you stated earlier. This thread was started by someone pointing out the ridiculousness of calling Obama a socialist and then by you jumping in and saying something like, well actually, he is a socialist.

No matter what philosophy you espouse, there is an election coming up in two weeks and neither candidate is a socialist and neither candidate is proposing socialist style universal health care. Some of your points on the health care system are valid, especially about the the number of discoveries and Patents of Medical nature overwhelmingly coming from the U.S. and I commend you for taking an intellectual interest in arguments of this nature. You give yourself away however as to your party affiliation by your knee jerk party line reactions in this post and in numerous others. Mr. Compassionate is far less discreet with his affiliation and I apologize for lumping you in with him if that offended you. As a "somewhat learned human being" I would expect of you to see the obvious, and that is that the true political discussions right now are being smoke screened by fear based politicizations, the basis of which are found in, among many other isms such as racism, terrorism and communism, socialism.

These fear based assertions really have no bearing on what and how our next president will lead. This is why I am disappointed in this thread. Five pages of arguments over whether Obama's health care plan is socialism. That is seriously idiotic. There may be a place for a discussion over the merits of government run, versus insurance run health care, but what that has to do with Obama and McCain at this stage is about nothing. What truly matters to me is the general direction this country is headed and I'm not going to get intellectual when all I'm doing is staying up late because I know my baby daughter is about to wake-up, so there's no use going to bed yet, and therefore what I'm going to do is call out those who I think are so blinded by their ideology that they can not see that the Republican party hasn't been running our country by any ideology, except the ideology of maintaining power by any means necessary. That is no way to run a government, it has been consequential for our country and I am fucking infuriated by it. Sorry you had to catch the blunt end of my frustration and anger but... seriously, I implore you and everyone else to think critically about what is going down here and to not fuck this up.

P.S. Kev - I was also just joking about not paddling with you. One of my best paddling partners is a feverent, unpolitically curious, Republican and I would trust him with my life on any swollen river. I'd paddle with you anytime.

Evan Stafford
Cub boater: "What do the spiders mean?" Old fart boater: "Trust your intuition." CRCII
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Old 10-21-2008   #52
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Wrangler - I noticed you didn't want to kick Mr. C in the nuts. I think I understand why: it would be too difficult to find 'em.

This thread has been pretty interesting, but I still find myself laughing at those who think that anyone left of Attila the Cheney is a "socialist." Too funny...

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Old 10-21-2008   #53
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Umm no offense, but if you read half of this thread you would realize I am not promoting the agenda of any party.
by kevintee

Come on now Kevin. There are dozens of threads and posts that make your affiliation quite clear as well as your intent to persuade readers to your side.

"I think I handled my alcohol pretty well considering how drunk I was." -Cousin Dan
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Old 10-21-2008   #54
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River Wrangler

I take it you agree that forming a new government beauracracy to institute a forced health care policy is a good thing...please expound.
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Old 10-21-2008   #55
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Health care should be for the kids and people who are unable to provide for them selves not lazy ass stay at home bastards like my older brother. i agree it should be more affordable but changing the system will not help. it is very affordable to those with benefits in there jobs which is the majority of the families i know the rest live off of child support or crack deals. i would say more support for children otherwise with any nation wide health care system socaist or non socialist we are taking a hit as a whole while helping those you could help them selves(whether any of you want o believe it or not. Who will qualify? a non profit organization would be key but unless its government run who and what company would do that with the market currently intact? some big problems with the whole affordable health care. if its government run i would have to say there would still be restrictions on who could and couldn't receive it. im sure since i smoke my fair share I wouldn't receive any affordable health care.
almost like the public schools wanting to start drug test students.
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Old 10-21-2008   #56
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a]all liberals are asking for a handout;i have never received one penny from the gov.except use of infrastructure and k-12 education ,my patents paid taxes, and one surgery for a hernia I was born with that the military paid for when my father, who abandoned my mom and i,served in Vietnam,guess i am a parasitic loathsome vermin fit only for extermination.

b]social security recipients are leeches;,they paid into the system all their lives[ there are some abusers].The system has met all it's obligations to date, and was solvent into future decades before Bush blew the budget surplus on tax cuts for the top tier.Part of the budget surplus could have been used to further extend solvency and fund a study on alternative models.Had we allowed ss funds to go into the stock market,the current recipients were not at risk but future recipients would have lost substantial value.

C]Sit on your ass white collar workers work harder than blue collar workers,puhleeze ,they may work more hours but doing what? Making phone calls, analyzing data,sitting in first class,3 martini lunches.going to conferences,e-mailing,etc.Have you in your prepubescent state ever even done ANY real hard dirty demeaning low paying work?Have you ever supported someone ,even yourself? Have you ever paid a medical /dental bill?Maintaining an average of 80 hrs, a week is highly dubious, do the math,it is hyperbole,they do work 100 hrs. sometimes not consistently.

D] any socialistic ideas emphasize utopian equality;guess you deliberately missed the part about a ' skill factor being already included " and a time factor also for those who work more.You arguing $10,000 per hr. is just proves my point not refutes it!

E] other countries that employ socialism are somehow failures ; oh really ,they don't have a high standard of living and outperform us on a number of key quality of life indicators in most European countries, in spite of higher population density and long ago depleted resources .The only indicator that matters is PER CAPITA INCOME NO MATTER HOW IT'S DISTRIBUTED RIGHT. FYI ,Cuba ,for all it's failings, does have excellent health care and is very philanthropic in Latin America.Don't spew your moronic myopic denials. I have personally witnessed it in Belize and Mexico.

YOU JUST DON'T GET IT !You think you are real clever regurgitating the conventional wisdom that led us into the mess we're in and is destroying our culture.This is a timely conversation,we are at a crossroads,you need not fear America is not going socialist, just trying to stop the bleeding caused by free market zealots ,who by the way are farther from the true international center of discourse than democratic socialists are.They, through incessant propaganda have effectively moved the American center far to the right of true [ humanities] center.You want to get into a pissing match over intelligence my IQ is in the low 130's' what is your's the 115 typical of business a-holes?
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Old 10-21-2008   #57
Denver, Colorado
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forgot to ridicule your ridiculous assertion that workers are free to just work anywhere, their range of choices is dictated by those who control resources,systems,and credit.I GUESS THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO TRANSFORM AIR INTO SOMETHING OF TANGIBLE VALUE.Get back to us when you have some real world experience.I 'll let you go so you can get to PREDATORY LENDING 201 CLASS AND YOUR APPOINTMENT TO HAVE THE REST OF YOUR CONSCIENCE REMOVED.
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Old 10-21-2008   #58
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Conservatives for Socialism?

"Obama the Socialist" has been racking up some interesting endorsements from prominent Republicans and/or conservatives. Here's a very partial list:
• Ken Adelman (!!)
• Francis Fukuyama (!!)
• Colin Powell
• Jim Leach
• Lincoln Chafee
• Richard Riordan
• Paul O'Neill
• Lowell Weicker
• Christopher Hitchens
• Julie NIXON Eisenhower
• Rita Hauser
• Susan Eisenhower
• Christopher Buckley
• Wick Allison
• Tom Bernstein
• John Canning
• Jackson Andrews
• Lilibet Hagel
• Larry Hunter
• Bill Ruckelshaus
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Old 10-21-2008   #59
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should have read [ humanity's]
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Old 10-21-2008   #60
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I have been trying to stay away from these politcal threads lately because I just find some of them to be so meaningless. It's blah, blah this verses blah, blah that. I am not trying to belittle anybody... believe me when I say that... as of lately I feel pretty intellectually belittled myself. The reason for this feeling is because I have started to realize how unoriginal my posts are, and that I see almost all other posters as unoriginal too. That doesn't go without saying that I have most definitely taken A LOT out of some of the posts on the buzz because I wouldn't have found some of the sources without people posting them. As much as I can disagree with people like Helio or Kevintee I do get to see and try to understand other sides of the ideological spectrum.

I'm sure that some people just don't want to accept that you most likely are very unoriginal as true...well, then... don't accept it and keep on fluffing up your ego. But, like it or not... we are all sheeps in one way or another.

We all are just simply regurgitating ideas and thoughts from sources that are far more original and far more powerful than I us. Maybe your sources are just ordinary teachers and articles in magazines, but they too have received their ideas and thoughts from a higher up original type of source.

I realized this recently while reading a book called Propaganda... this is a link to a free online version. Propaganda by Edward Bernays (192

I highly suggest reading this book (it actually doesn't take that long to read... considering it's called a book) THis book is by Edward Bernays and was written in 1928. Edward Bernays is considered to be one of the founders of the US Public Relations industry. The contents in this book will most definitely make you realize that there are a very small minority of people in this country that DO mold, shape and conform your opinions... whether you like it or not!

Here is a couple of quotes:

THE conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country.
We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.
Our invisible governors are, in many cases, unaware of the identity of their fellow members in the inner cabinet.
They govern us by their qualities of natural leadership, their ability to supply needed ideas and by their key position in the social structure. Whatever attitude one chooses to take toward this condition, it remains a fact that in almost every act of our daily lives, whether in the sphere of politics or business, in our social conduct or our ethical thinking, we are dominated by the relatively small number of persons—a trifling fraction of our hundred and twenty million—who understand the mental processes and social patterns of the masses. It is they who pull the wires which control the public mind, who harness old social forces and contrive new ways to bind and guide the world.
This is my favorite paragraph:

Universal literacy was supposed to educate the common man to control his environment. Once he could read and write he would have a mind fit to rule. So ran the democratic doctrine. But instead of a mind, universal literacy has given him rubber stamps, rubber stamps inked with advertising slogans, with editorials, with published scientific data, with the trivialities of the tabloids and the platitudes of history, but quite innocent of original thought. Each man's rubber stamps are the duplicates of millions of others, so that when those millions are exposed to the same stimuli, all receive identical imprints. It may seem an exaggeration to say that the American public gets most of its ideas in this wholesale fashion. The mechanism by which ideas are disseminated on a large scale is propaganda, in the broad sense of an organized effort to spread a particular belief or doctrine.

This whole concept of a small minority of people shaping your opinions doesn't have to be looked at as sinister... however I do think that recently some of the shaping of public opinion is turning into a sinister nature.

BTW- in the book he does explain the "they" and who "the invisible gov't" is.

I guess the reason I posted this in this particluar post is because I feel that this book may coincide -slightly- and or bring new light to the nature of this debate and some other previous political debate posts.

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