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Old 08-26-2008   #11
mr. compassionate
 
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Yes, El Flaco, sounds great! A bunch of platitudes we can all generally agree upon but at what cost and how much do my taxes go up? I believe I've heard in the neighborhood of $850-900 billion in new social programs. That's 3 times what the Iraq war costs per year!
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Old 08-26-2008   #12
El Flaco
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Yes, I support the lesser evil...the moderate democrat vs. the far left socialist. Although he may be old, I do know where he generally stands on the issue.
You do? That's quite a trick these days:


Torture

BEFORE

McCain 11/16/07: "One of the things that kept us going when I was in prison in North Vietnam was that we knew that if the situation were reversed, that we would not be doing to our captors what they were doing to us"

"I want to tell you. Rudy Giuliani, Fred Thompson and Mitt Romney all think it is O.K. They have one thing in common. They don’t understand the military and the culture of this nation. If they did, they could never condone such behavior."

AFTER

McCain votes against a ban on CIA torture.

Special Interests

BEFORE

McCain: "I'm the only one special interests don't give any money to."

AFTER

McCain's campaign manager and many key campaign officials are telecom lobbyists, who have given at least $765,000 to his campaign (and that's just one special interest)

Campaign Finance Laws

BEFORE

McCain author of McCain Feingold amendment, limiting use of soft money in campaigns.

AFTER

3/21/08: McCain likely in violation of campaign finance laws.

Jerry Falwell

BEFORE

McCain 2/28/2000: "I am a pro-life, pro-family fiscal conservative, an advocate of a strong defense, and yet Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and a few Washington leaders of the pro-life movement call me an unacceptable presidential candidate. They distort my pro- life positions and smear the reputations of my supporters. Why? Because I don't pander to them, because I don't ascribe to their failed philosophy that money is our message."

McCain 2/29/2000: calls Robertson and Falwell "agents of intolerance."

AFTER

McCain gives commencement speech at Falwell's Liberty University, cozies up to Falwell.

Iraq

BEFORE

McCain 9/29/02: “We’re not going to get into house-to-house fighting in Baghdad. We may have to take out buildings, but we’re not going to have a bloodletting of trading American bodies for Iraqi bodies.”

McCain 1/22/03: “But the point is that, one, we will win this conflict. We will win it easily.”

AFTER

McCain: 1/4/07: "When I voted to support this war, I knew it was probably going to be long and hard and tough, and those that voted for it and thought that somehow it was going to be some kind of an easy task, then I’m sorry they were mistaken. Maybe they didn’t know what they were voting for."

Abortion

BEFORE

McCain 8/24/99: "But certainly in the short term, or even the long term, I would not support repeal of Roe v. Wade, which would then force X number of women in America to [undergo] illegal and dangerous operations."
AFTER

McCain 2/18/07: "I do not support Roe versus Wade. It should be overturned"

Bush's tax cuts

BEFORE

McCain 5/26/01: "I cannot in good conscience support a tax cut in which so many of the benefits go to the most fortunate among us, at the expense of middle class Americans who most need tax relief."

AFTER

In 2006 McCain votes to extend Bush tax cuts

Ethanol

BEFORE

McCain 11/03: "Ethanol is a product that would not exist if Congress didn't create an artificial market for it. No one would be willing to buy it. Yet thanks to agricultural subsidies and ethanol producer subsidies, it is now a very big business - tens of billions of dollars that have enriched a handful of corporate interests - primarily one big corporation, ADM. Ethanol does nothing to reduce fuel consumption, nothing to increase our energy independence, nothing to improve air quality." [CNN]

AFTER

McCain 8/06: "I support ethanol and I think it is a vital, a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects.\

Gay Marriage

Well, just watch:



Confederate Flag
BEFORE

McCain 1/12/00: "Personally, I see the flag as symbol of heritage."

AFTER

McCain 4/19/00: "I feared that if I answered honestly, I could not win the South Carolina primary. So I chose to compromise my principles." [CNN]

Gun control

BEFORE

In 2001, McCain and Lieberman introduce legislation to regulate gun shows.
AFTER

McCain 4/19/07: "I strongly support the Second Amendment and I believe the Second Amendment ought to be preserved, which means no gun control"

Moqtada al Sadr

BEFORE

McCain week of 3/16/08: "His influence has been on the wane for a long time."

AFTER

4/1/08: "I said he was still major player and his influence is going to have to be reduced and gradually eliminated."

Housing Relief

BEFORE

March 2008: "It is not the duty of government to bail out and reward those who act irresponsibly, whether they are big banks or small borrowers."

AFTER

4/11/08: "Let me make it clear, that in these challenging times, I am committed to using all the resources of this government and great nation to create opportunity and make sure that every deserving American has a good job and can achieve their American dream."



The Estate Tax

BEFORE

"I am concerned that repeal of the estate tax would provide massive benefits solely to the wealthiest and highest-income taxpayers in the country. A Treasury Department study found that almost no estate tax has been paid by lower- and middle-income taxpayers. But taxes have been paid on the estates of people who were in the highest 20% of the income distribution at the time of their death. It found that 91% of all estate taxes are paid by the estates of people whose annual income exceeded $190,000 around the time of their death."

AFTER

"Another of my disagreements with Senator Obama concerns the estate tax, which he proposes to increase to a top rate of 55 percent. The estate tax is one of the most unfair tax laws on the books, and the first step to reform is to keep it predictable and keep it low."



Wiretaps

BEFORE

"There are some areas where the statutes don’t apply, such as in the surveillance of overseas communications. Where they do apply, however, I think that presidents have the obligation to obey and enforce laws that are passed by Congress and signed into law by the president, no matter what the situation is."

AFTER

McCain spokesman: "Neither the administration nor the telecoms need apologize for actions that most people, except for the A.C.L.U. and trial lawyers, understand were constitutional and appropriate in the wake of the attacks on Sept. 11, 2001,”



Immigration Reform

#1

BEFORE

McCain introduces bill on immigration reform.

AFTER

January 30, 2008, when asked if he would vote for his own bill: ""No, I would not, because we know what the situation is today. The people want the borders secured first.""



#2

BEFORE

May 22, 2008: "[We must enact comprehensive immigration reform. We must make it a top agenda item if we don’t do it before, and we probably won’t, a little straight talk, as of January 2009."

AFTER

National Review: "Team McCain tells me the senator’s comments were poorly worded. There’s been no discussion within the campaign of altering their stance on illegal immigration, and as far as everyone on the campaign is concerned, the policy is still, ’secure the border first.’"


Offshore drilling

BEFORE

1999 campaign: McCain opposes offshore drilling

AFTER

McCain 6/15/08: ""There are areas off our coasts that should be open to exploration and exploitation, and I hope we can take the first step by lifting the moratoria."

[MotherJones]

Social Security

BEFORE

McCain 11/28/04: “Without privatization, I don’t see how you can possibly, over time, make sure that young Americans are able to receive Social Security benefits.”

AFTER

McCain 6/12/08: "I’m not for, quote, privatizing Social Security. I never have been. I never will be."
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Old 08-26-2008   #13
DurangoSteve
 
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El Flaco,

Nicely done!
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Old 08-26-2008   #14
El Flaco
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
Yes, El Flaco, sounds great! A bunch of platitudes we can all generally agree upon but at what cost and how much do my taxes go up? I believe I've heard in the neighborhood of $850-900 billion in new social programs. That's 3 times what the Iraq war costs per year!
Oh....wow, I hadn't anticipated you coming back with a bullet-proof argument. "You've heard"? Gosh, I guess I should accept that statement as pure fact. Great job.

To borrow from another black man with more credentials to be President than our current one:
"Oh, you're finished? Well then allow me to retort."

Some of the current, expensive tax cuts in the McCain plan:
• A $1.2 billion annual tax cut for Exxon-Mobil, $4 billion for the five largest U.S. oil companies combined, and $2 billion for America’s largest health insurance companies;
• More than $100 billion per year for corporations;
• An average tax cut of more than $269,000 per year above and beyond the Bush tax cuts for the top 0.1 percent of households – that is families making over $2.8 million annually.
• Less than one-quarter of the benefits go to the 80 percent of households who make up the bulk of the middle class in America.
In total the New York Times estimated that these proposals “will add $200 billion to $300 billion or, depending on his voluntary tax system, even more” annually to the deficit.


This is what we call "supporting evidence":
Estimated Cost of Selected McCain Tax Proposals


Corporate tax cut $100 billion Wall Street Journal, 3/3/08: “the 71-year-old candidate would slash the corporate income-tax rate from 35 percent to 25 percent at a cost to the Treasury of $100 billion a year, estimates Mr. Holtz-Eakin.”

Complete Elimination of the AMT $60 billion McCain Economic Plan: “Repealing this onerous tax will save middle class families nearly $60 billion in a single year.” John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

Increase the dependent exemption $18 billion Tax Policy Center, 6/25/08, http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/Uploa...teTaxPlans.pdf, p. 13.

Eliminate expensing At least $200 billion The U.S. Department of Treasury estimates that a partial expensing proposal under which businesses would be able to expense only 35 percent of new investment would cost $1.3 trillion over ten years. (“Approaches to Improve the Competitiveness of the U.S. Business Tax System for the 21st Century,” December 20, 2007, p. 50, http://www.ustreas.gov/press/release...achesstudy.pdf.

Gas Tax holiday $10 billion McCain campaign estimate, John McCain 2008 - John McCain for President

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Old 08-26-2008   #15
mr. compassionate
 
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"I have two daughters, if they were to make a mistake I don't want to punish them with a baby". Who said this? You can guess, right?

I believe one of our license plates say "Respect Life"
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Old 08-26-2008   #16
grandyoso
 
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Respect Life

Nice one. Respect life. That plate has no reference to pro life.... Um yes Pat I would like to buy a clue...
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Old 08-26-2008   #17
DurangoSteve
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
"I have two daughters, if they were to make a mistake I don't want to punish them with a baby". Who said this? You can guess, right?

I believe one of our license plates say "Respect Life"
Does this "respect life" thang only apply to fetuses? Seems like compassion for the actually born is kind of lacking in the GOP.

Ever read Phillip Roth's "Our Gang"? Great political satire. The main character, Trick E. Dixon, wants to extend voting rights to the unborn.
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Old 08-26-2008   #18
DanOrion
 
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MR. C: Instead of arguing on what McCain wants to do:
Economy: Buisiness focused tax cuts/trickle down theroy
Energy: More Domestic Oil Production
Iraq: Occupy Iraq to guarentee a US-friendly governement
Enviornment: Use market tools instead of regulation

...you simply attack McCain's opponent, with little basis, context or thought. You tear down instead of build up. What I, an Obama supporter, hope for with the coming Democratic administration is a paradigm shift in Washington, from what you represent: fear, oppression and attack to what I hope Obama represents: simple American ideals of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

Furthermore, you seem to be a more effecutal chat forum troll than an whitewater boater. Perhaps your interests may be better served at another online venue:
http://www.cologop.org/
Conservative's Forum, Conservative Politics
Log Cabin Republicans - Home
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Old 08-26-2008   #19
El Flaco
 
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Originally Posted by mr. compassionate View Post
"I have two daughters, if they were to make a mistake I don't want to punish them with a baby". Who said this? You can guess, right?

I believe one of our license plates say "Respect Life"

Classic NeoCon head fake- take whatever quote you can find, take it completely out of context, and assign a totally different meaning to it so as to smear someone. Now you're just looking stupid. I would highly suggest that you actually look this shit up before you post it. It's really too easy.

- From Media Matters:

In his May 26 column, syndicated columnist Robert Novak falsely suggested that Sen. Barack Obama was discussing abortion when he said that if his two daughters were to "make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby." Specifically, Novak wrote, "Obama, while asserting that 'nobody is pro-abortion,' has said that if his two daughters 'make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.' " However, as Media Matters for America has repeatedly noted, and as CNN's video of the campaign event at which Obama made his comments shows, Obama was not referring to abortion during the remarks from which Novak lifted the "I don't want them punished with a baby" comment, but was instead referring to sex education. Additionally, CNN reported that Obama's comments were in response to "a question about how his administration, if he's elected, would deal with the issue of HIV and AIDS and also sexually transmitted diseases with young girls."
From the March 29 edition of CNN's Ballot Bowl 2008, which reported on Obama's comments at a campaign event that day in Johnstown, Pennsylvania:
MARY SNOW (CNN correspondent): Welcome back to CNN's edition of Ballot Bowl. This is a chance for you to hear directly from the candidates. I'm Mary Snow in Johnstown, Pennsylvania, where Senator Barack Obama is holding a town hall meeting right now, taking questions from the audience. Let's go straight to Senator Barack Obama; he just was asked a question about how his administration, if he's elected, would deal with the issue of HIV and AIDS and also sexually transmitted diseases with young girls. Here's Senator Barack Obama.
OBAMA: -- or we give them really expensive surgery and we don't spend money on the front end keeping people healthy in the first place. So, when it comes to -- when it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence only -- should include abstinence education and teaching that children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters -- 9 years old and 6 years old. I'm going to teach them first of all about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16.
You know, so, it doesn't make sense to not give them information. You still want to teach them the morals and the values to make good decisions. That will be important, number one. Then we're still going to have to provide better treatment for those who do have -- who do contract HIV/AIDS, because it's no longer a death sentence, if, in fact, you get the proper cocktails. It's expensive. That's why we want to prevent as much as possible.
C'mon, seriously- you've had hours to come up with something verifiable.
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Old 08-28-2008   #20
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This is a photograph of Mr. "Compassionate":
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